Bree Sullivan-Howell / Southern Belle

Louis Goodman / Bree Sullivan-Howell - Transcript

[00:00:03] Louis Goodman: Welcome to the Love Thy Lawyer Podcast, where we talk with attorneys about their lives and careers. I'm your host, Louis Goodman. Today we welcome Bree Sullivan-Howell to the podcast. Ms. Sullivan-Howell has been very involved in political activity, journalism, paralegal studies, and of course being an attorney.

She is part of the American Institute of Family Law Attorneys and was named one of the 10 best family law attorneys in Georgia. Positive feedback from clients has earned Ms. Sullivan-Howell, an AVVO Client's Choice badge. Ms. Sullivan-Howell has published three books on the subject of divorce. Crush Your Divorce and Keep your Faith Crush Your Comeback, and Devotional Divorcing. All of those are available on Amazon. She also is the mother of children, and I think that that might be one's most important job. Bree Sullivan-Howell, welcome to Love Thy Lawyer. 

[00:01:16] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Thanks for having me. 

[00:01:18] Louis Goodman: It is so nice to have you. I talked to you briefly on the phone a few weeks ago and I've really been looking forward to talking with you.

Where are you speaking to us from right now? 

[00:01:31] Bree Sullivan-Howell: I am coming to you live from South Georgia, USA. 

[00:01:36] Louis Goodman: And you have just enough accent to prove it. 

[00:01:39] Bree Sullivan-Howell: That's right. Just enough. 

[00:01:42] Louis Goodman: Can you tell us in your words what type of practice that you have? How do you describe your law practice? 

[00:01:50] Bree Sullivan-Howell: My law practice is family law heavy. I do a little bit of personal injury, but only for my family law clients as a sideline, I don't really advertise that, but I do mainly family law with my time. 

[00:02:03] Louis Goodman: And how long have you been doing that kind of practice? 

[00:02:06] Bree Sullivan-Howell: I've been practicing family law about 20 years. I've been in practice 22. 

[00:02:11] Louis Goodman: Where are you from originally?

[00:02:13] Bree Sullivan-Howell: South Georgia. Right here. 

[00:02:15] Louis Goodman: Is that where you went to high school? What high school did you go to there in South Georgia? 

[00:02:19] Bree Sullivan-Howell: I went to Deerfield Windsor School. It's a private school in Albany, Georgia, in the heart of plantation country and it's a wonderful place to grow up this area of the state. 

[00:02:30] Louis Goodman: So after you graduated from high school, you went to college, where'd you go to college?

[00:02:36] Bree Sullivan-Howell: I went to the University of Georgia for four years. Graduated there with a degree in journalism, and then went on to law school immediately just after graduation. A few months later, I went to Mercer for a law school, which is another school here in Georgia. 

[00:02:52] Louis Goodman: I understand you did pretty well in college. 

[00:02:54] Bree Sullivan-Howell: I did pretty well.

[00:02:56] Louis Goodman: How well did you do? 

[00:02:58] Bree Sullivan-Howell: I had a, I had a 4.0 GPA when I finished, so I got to sit on the stage with Ted Turner at graduation, which was interesting. He's a character, but he spoke at my commencement ceremony at Georgia, and then I was fortunate to be given a full scholarship to come to law school at Mercer.

That's in middle Georgia, in Macon. 

[00:03:19] Louis Goodman: What prompted you to start thinking about law school? Or when did you know that you were a lawyer and just needed to go to law school in order to get something stamped on a degree? 

[00:03:32] Bree Sullivan-Howell: You know, this is really a funny story. I have known I wanted to be an attorney since middle school.

I think I was 13, and when all of my friends had pictures of, you know, heartthrobs hanging in their lockers, I had pictures of women in business suits carrying briefcases. That was always my dream and I knew it from an early age, and I only majored in journalism to have a fallback career in case law school didn't work out.

You know, 'cause at least I had a marketable skill then. But I've always known and I've always loved any kind of drama, television movie about the law or about an investigation or about a lawsuit or a courtroom thing. It's just always drawn me. 

[00:04:14] Louis Goodman: So what was your law TV show? 

[00:04:17] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Well, as a child it was LA Law, which is over in your neck of the woods, I guess, the setting of that.

And then you get into real law practice and you realize real life is nothing like tv, but it was entertaining. And now they're like Suits. Suits is a really good show. If you haven't seen that one, it's really good. 

[00:04:37] Louis Goodman: I've seen a few episodes. When did you first decide, okay, you know, I kind of known I'm a lawyer since I was 13 years old, but now I'm gonna actually fill out the application and send in the money and take the LSAT. When did that take place? 

[00:04:53] Bree Sullivan-Howell: That was fall of my senior year in college. 

[00:04:57] Louis Goodman: What did you think about law school once you got there? 

[00:05:00] Bree Sullivan-Howell: It was anticlimactic. I mean, I liked it okay. But I didn't like all the classes I had to take that didn't interest me. You know, they make you take a lot of things just to get a broad base of learning so you can pass the bar exam. And I did all of that. And I did okay. But it was not always enjoyable. And just the volume of the work, it just was overwhelming. 

[00:05:22] Louis Goodman: Were you clear that you wanted to go into family law right from the get-go? 

[00:05:26] Bree Sullivan-Howell: No, not at all. In fact, I thought there was kind of this stigma against being a divorce lawyer. I thought that was not very high brow law practice, you know, when I was in law school, and so I really focused on commercial and business litigation and corporate transactions and that kind of thing, thinking that would be more respectable or something.

But then family law just kind of found me and I have loved it, and it's a way to minister to people and families in a way that you don't get that opportunity in business things. Where they don't tell you their personal lives, you know, it's a whole different thing and it's so fascinating and so entertaining most days. Every day's an adventure. You don't know the fact pattern you're gonna get to figure out. I just love it. 

[00:06:11] Louis Goodman: When did you transition into the family law and was there something specific that prompted that? 

[00:06:17] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Yeah, it was interesting. I started my law practice in a larger city. In middle Georgia where I had gone to law school and I was in a bigger firm doing this business kind of work, and then moved home when I started having children and closer to family, you know, needed the help, wanted the community of, you know, South Georgia again for my children to grow up in.

And when I got here, I wanted to be in the courtroom. That's what I knew. And to be in the courtroom, in my area of the country, in my area of the state, you have to practice family law. I get to go to court every week. So that's how I fell into it. Plus, there was such a demand in a small town. You just do what comes through the door to begin with, you know?

And that's what I got. 

[00:07:03] Louis Goodman: What is it that you really like about practicing law? Because in talking to you, you just sort of exude this enthusiasm about it, and can you talk a little bit about what is it that you really like? 

[00:07:16] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Well, it's two things, I think. It's bringing order from chaos. Your client walks in and they just like throw up on you all of their facts and their problems, and they're crying, and they're upset, and they have no way of compartmentalizing it.

They can't make sense of their situation. And what I've been able to do with time is boil it down in one hour of a consultation to an agenda of a plan and what we're gonna do to get you back on track and how we're gonna accomplish that. And it just gives people such peace. So that's the second thing I love is just bringing people peace and letting them dump their stress on me because it's not heavy for me like it is for them.

I look at it like a puzzle to solve. So, you know, it's a blessing to be in that position. For folks that you've just met, I mean, where else in the world and what other career do you get to hear everyone's deepest concerns in the first hour of meeting them? Then bring real value to those problems. I guess counselors do that, but you know, I think family law attorneys do a lot of it too.

[00:08:21] Louis Goodman: Well, I think that lawyers are counselors in some sense, you know? Yeah. The judge calls you counsel from the bench. 

[00:08:28] Bree Sullivan-Howell: That's correct. That's right. 

[00:08:30] Louis Goodman: Do you, do you represent men and women? 

[00:08:33] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Yes, I do. I represent a lot of men actually in custody cases, and we've had some good results. I think those are my favorite days when men get custody when they really deserve it, because in our area that doesn't happen too often, so it's a hard battle most of the time, but when you pull it off, it's just super rewarding.

[00:08:53] Louis Goodman: Are there generally shared custody agreements in Georgia? 

[00:08:56] Bree Sullivan-Howell: We have some of that, but it's not the status quo. You know, in some places it's like you walk into court knowing the judge is starting with a 50 50 plan in mind, and then you have to move the needle off of that position with your argument and your evidence and all.

And here it's on. I mean, there's not supposed to be a presumption and the law, there is not a presumption in favor of the mother, but in practice there certainly is where I am still. It's just kind of unspoken. So I do a lot of that advocating for men.

[00:09:27] Louis Goodman: If a young person were thinking about a career, would you recommend the law? 

[00:09:33] Bree Sullivan-Howell: I recommend it to all three of my children, and none of them will do it because they see how hard I work. But I tell everybody, you need to be a lawyer. It's such a versatile degree to have. You can go into business, you don't have to be in a courtroom.

You can write draft contracts, you can be a government worker. You can do investigations, you can do the criminal world if you want. You can be in the CIA, I mean, there are all kinds of opportunities. 

[00:09:59] Louis Goodman: Yeah, I think the law does open up a lot of opportunities. How is actually practicing law either met or differed from your expectations about it?

[00:10:07] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Well, I really kind of always envisioned myself in a big city in a skyscraper with the floor to ceiling, glass walls, you know, looking over the city and the water and whatever, and I'm just in a small town. In a little office, it looks like a house, and happy as a clam, but it's not what I expected. I thought it was gonna be this, you know, high power, fast paced, big city thing for me and my career, and that's just not where life took me.

But I like this because where I live, I can get anywhere in my town in 10 minutes, so I can be at the school for the soccer game and I can be at the courtroom in five minutes actually. So it's just super convenient and much less stressful than big city traffic. And that fast pace isn't for everyone, and I don't think it would be for me if I were there.

[00:10:59] Louis Goodman: What about the business of practicing law? How's that gone for you? You know, I mean, we go to law school. They generally don't teach us much about running a business, and yet for most of us who are not, you know, involved with a, you know, a government job or working for a corporation, we have a business to run.

[00:11:21] Bree Sullivan-Howell: That's right. That's a lot of the time I spend, I do my own books. I'm a solo practitioner, so I'm kind of a control freak. I like to know where the dollars are and what my budget items are and how I'm doing. You know, at all times I want a finger on the pulse, so I spend some time on that every week, but I like that because it keeps me in touch with it and I know what's happening and I feel like I'm in control of it.

I think if you let someone else manage those things, you lose a little bit of the perspective you need to run an efficient practice. You need to know what things are costing and where you can be saving and what your advertising budget is, and if you've exceeded it for the year, you know, that kind of thing.

Super important 'cause you could be a great lawyer and make no money and do no good for the community because you can't donate anything because you didn't manage your business part very well. So, you know, my goal was always to be efficient and productive.

[00:12:20] Louis Goodman: Is there anything that you know now that you really wished you knew before you started practicing law? 

[00:12:25] Bree Sullivan-Howell: I wish I had known or been able to understand how hard it is sometimes to separate the emotion from just the business of it. Because I really care about my clients and I get, occasionally I get a really hard case and it gets to me.

It doesn't happen all the time, but you need to prepare yourself for that. If you're gonna be family law, especially. Every now and then, you'll get a case that's just super hard and you feel like a child's safety is on your shoulders. Like you've gotta figure it out and it's, you know, heavy. That's hard.

So I guess, I guess someone, I wish someone had maybe told me to keep a better perspective on that. I think earlier in my career, I let it affect me more. I'm better now, but it's hard when you're dealing with people's children and you know the things that matter most to 'em. 

[00:13:18] Louis Goodman: Oh, yeah. I mean, I've often said that I'm not emotionally set up to handle what we call here in California family law.

[00:13:27] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:13:28] Louis Goodman: But it's great that there are people like yourself who are. What do you think, this is kind of a two-part question. What do you think is the best advice you've ever received and what advice would you give to a young attorney just starting out? And you could answer one or both parts of that question.

[00:13:47] Bree Sullivan-Howell: One bit of advice I received. I heard it at ACLE, just a random stranger was speaking, another attorney in the bar. And they said, build your practice on referrals. And it seems counterintuitive, like you wouldn't wanna refer all your business out, but if you don't do a certain kind of work, you shouldn't try to do that kind of work.

You should specialize, number one, and then anything that comes through your door because someone heard your good. That you don't practice. Like if it, like I'm a family law attorney. If somebody walks in the door and they need a complex estate plan drafted with a trust and you know, complex tax planning, whatever.

I've built my reputation and my practice on referrals and I send the things I don't do to those people who do those things and then they send me all their family law. And before you know it, you've got this circular sort of back scratching arrangement where everybody's doing well in their field and that's what the community of attorneys is about, really helping each other serve the public efficiently.

You don't wanna try to do something you don't know how to do. 

[00:14:55] Louis Goodman: I try and stay in my lane. I have a very narrow lane. I just do criminal defense in Alameda County. And I mean, that's it. You know, I started out as a prosecutor here, so I, you know, I know all the judges, I know all the DAs, I know the other attorneys, and I know how things work here in Alameda County.

I really do not claim to be a lawyer for all people at all circumstances. But if you have a criminal case in Alameda County, I can get you through that. 

[00:15:22] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Well, I hope I never do. 

[00:15:24] Louis Goodman: You never will. 

[00:15:27] Bree Sullivan-Howell: I'll try to behave if I come to your county. 

[00:15:30] Louis Goodman: Please do. Please. I know it's not gonna be easy, but please. Do you think the legal system's fair?

[00:15:38] Bree Sullivan-Howell: You know, I might be just a Pollyanna, but I do. I think we have the best system in the world. It's not perfect, but we have the best system in the world, and it's based on centuries of background and it came from all the other best systems that came before it to make what we have. It's a special system because every party gets an opportunity to speak.

I think a good cross-examination brings out the truth every single time, and you just have to trust that, finder of fact, the judge or the jury to get it right. All you can do is present the best case you can, but I think our system is just when the lawyers are good because you need all the information to make a fair result or to make a fair ruling.

I think that's where it falls apart. You know, if there's not justice, it's because somebody didn't do their job presenting it right. That's just my opinion. 

[00:16:32] Louis Goodman: I'd like to talk a little bit about the books that you've written and is there one that you'd like to focus in on? 

[00:16:39] Bree Sullivan-Howell: My magnum opus was Crush Your Divorce and Keep Your Faith, which is the 400 plus page book that I published last February, and it was my first one.

Really proud of it. I spent a lot of time on it. It took two years to write it just in my spare time, and it's just for the heart of the divorcing woman. It's to help you sort out your emotions and then get down to business. Then it gives a little hopes in the future too. So 

[00:17:09] Louis Goodman: I'm not gonna ask you to summarize 400 pages and two years of work.

[00:17:14] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Right. 

[00:17:14] Louis Goodman: But can you give us just sort of a sense of the things that you look at in that book and who would be helpful for, you mentioned women, and why it would be helpful. Like what things do you talk about that are so important in probably virtually every divorce case? 

[00:17:37] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Well, it's written for women in particular, women of faith. You know, I'm from the Bible Belt, it's how I grew up. It's who I am. And when I was writing it, my book coach asked me, can you write this book without all the Bible verses? And I said, no, because that's really what I, who I am and how I talk to my clients. Like I can't do it without that. So it's written for women of faith, but really for anybody, because I've found that there's nothing for Christian women to read when they're going through divorce and they feel a lot of shame because you know, the books in the Christian bookstore are a, written by men, and B, tell you don't get divorced.

You know, God hates divorce. You'll be in spiritual danger if you get divorced. All the shame comes with that in the south, at least in my experience. And so I wrote this book to sort of give them the ability to feel like they aren't alone and that there's a license to get out of an abusive situation. In particular, I go into the spiritual component of that and I analyze a lot of those things that most people don't write about.

And I have a whole section on the different ways a person can be abused and how it's a psychological and actually physiological reaction you have to abuse, and how you stay trapped in a trauma bond sometimes, and how to get away from that. And then my book, I think is also special because it has a whole section on logistics, which is, you know, now that you've got your emotions sorted out and you know how you think about it and feel about it, roll up your sleeves and help your lawyer because you can't win without doing your part. And here's what you can do to help. It's not legal advice, of course, you can't advise the masses, but it gives a lot of good practice pointers for you know, how to come alongside your lawyer rather than just trusting them to do it all.

Gathering evidence, you know, how do you prove this thing you want the judge to understand about your story. And it goes deeper. It goes to a deeper level than most books about divorce go. So I'm really proud of it. I hand it to my clients. I'm selling it online, it's going everywhere, all over the world.

So it's been very exciting to have that kind of reach. 

[00:19:51] Louis Goodman: And just to repeat, the name of the book is Crush Your Divorce and Keep Your Faith. And it was an Amazon Top 10 book on divorce. 

[00:20:01] Bree Sullivan-Howell: It was, and then the sequel was Crush Your Comeback, which is, you know, just little pointers about co-parenting after divorce and like how to rebuild your financial future and how to look at your budget and just various things like that.

How to be a quality co-parent and be kind and you know, behave in a way that won't land you back in court, you know? Yeah. I mean, 'cause that happens, people aren't done at the divorce a lot of times, so that was a really fun one to write as well. 

[00:20:31] Louis Goodman: I wanna shift gears here a little bit, Bree. Can you tell me a little bit about what your own family life has been like and how practicing laws fit into that and your family life fit into the practice of law?

[00:20:42] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Well, you know, my own life informed my writing. So I grew up in South Georgia, went to law school, did all the things a good girl does, you know, go to school, get educated, get a job, you know, come back home, raise your family. I've got three children, two in college, one in high school, and they're all. Making me proud so far, making good decisions so far.

I pray that continues, but I am divorced myself from my children's father and it was a very painful process. And so when that all happened, I got a whole new perspective on the real raw pain people go through trying to transition to a new single life and how to, you know, disentangle or uncouple. From a long marriage in particular with children and coping with all the emotions that they have along with the ones you have.

And you know, it's just a really difficult thing if you've ever been through it, you know? And if you haven't, you don't. So when I went through it myself, I just realized how awful it is when it's you, and I had been representing people years and years in these predicaments. Managing it and having empathy, but not to the level that I have it now.

And then a month after my divorce was final, I got set up on a blind date, and that blind date is my current husband. And we married seven months after that blind date. So it was like the Lord just had him waiting for me. And I just wanna shout from the rooftops and I did in my book. There's hope for your future.

Divorce is not the end of your life and there's a good plan for you. And so if you can just stay positive and keep walking forward, you will get there. That was my story, and so I'm here to give you hope and give you pointers on how to get there and help you with your lawyer. So that's how my family connects to my work.

[00:22:44] Louis Goodman: What sort of things do you like to do recreationally when you're not practicing law? 

[00:22:49] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Well, I have orchids. I grow orchids, and I have a sunny spot in my kitchen, and they just seem to love it so. I like my orchids. I know that's unusual, but I do, and I don't really exercise. I really should, but I work all the time. Really, my favorite hobby is writing. So I write a lot and I do some real estate investing and I'm interested in podcasting and podcasts, you know, listening to podcasts about things I'm interested in. So I spend my down time that way. 

[00:23:20] Louis Goodman: Is there somebody either living or out of the historical past who you'd like to meet?

[00:23:27] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Yes. I never knew either one of my grandmothers, my one grandmother. My maternal grandmother passed away when my mother was pregnant with me, and I was born six weeks after her death. So, I would love to meet her. My dad's mom had a stroke when I was very young, so she was not communicative and I didn't ever really get to have a conversation with her. So what I'd really love is to have conversation with them both and hear more about my parents' childhoods from their mother's perspectives. I think that would be fascinating. It's just something I've never had. 

[00:24:03] Louis Goodman: What mistakes do you think lawyers make? 

[00:24:06] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Not spending enough time with family. I think it's like they say, you hear it in legal circles that the law is a jealous bride.

You know, it takes all of our time. And to do a good job, you really have to study every case. So I think that's the struggle, that work-life balance. But if you don't carve it out, you don't carve it out, and then you get to be an old person and you look back and you regret that you didn't carve it out. So I'm trying to be intentional about that.

Now that I kind of have my practice under control at this stage of life, you know, I'm trying to spend more time with family. I'm just, I worry about being on my deathbed and having regret about that. 

[00:24:48] Louis Goodman: Let's say you came into some real money, let's say three or four billion dollars. 

[00:24:53] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Oh, that's a lot of money. 

[00:24:55] Louis Goodman: That is a lot of money.

Yeah. I mean, it's a, you know, as a personal matter, it's a lot of money. It's not enough money to really change the world, but it's certainly enough to change your own life. Mm-hmm. And what, if anything, would you do differently in your life? 

[00:25:09] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Not one thing. I love practicing law more than breathing.

I mean, any one of my friends will tell you how much I love my work and I just get such energy from working with the people and going to court and doing all the things. I don't think I would stop. I think I would keep working. I might figure out a way to have a charity. Do like a Bill Gates foundation kind of thing, you know, and fund some projects in the world to do some good. But I think my day to day would stay the same. I think you worry, I would worry that maybe I would stop going, like I would stop having initiative or something if I quit working. 

[00:25:47] Louis Goodman: What if you had a magic wand there was one thing in the world, the legal world or the world in general that you could change? What would that be? 

[00:25:55] Bree Sullivan-Howell: You know what bothers me more than anything? This is so silly. On TV when they show the animals who are starving. I think if you could wave a magic wand and make sure no one is starving or homeless in the world, that would make me feel really good. 'cause I worry about those people and those animals. I have to turn the channel. I get like teary eyed. I can't handle it. 

[00:26:17] Louis Goodman: Let's say someone gave you a Super Bowl ad. You had 60 seconds on the Super Bowl to put out any message to this really big audience, what would be the theme of your Super Bowl ad? 

[00:26:34] Bree Sullivan-Howell: I think it would be along the same lines as the theme of my book, which is, you're gonna be okay. There's no shame in your situation. God loves you. You're gonna be all right. You don't have to be abused, that there's a better plan for your life. I think that's a message more people need. 

[00:26:55] Louis Goodman: Bree, if someone wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that? What's your website. How do we get in touch with you? 

[00:27:03] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Well, I've got a website for my law firm, which is www.sullivan-firm.com. I also have a page for my books, which is crushyourdivorce.com. I'm also on social media. On TikTok I'm lawyer Bree on Instagram. I'm lawyer Bree, and also Crush Your divorce. And I have a Twitter handle too, I think.

I don't use it much. I guess you could find me there and on LinkedIn as well, but those are the main ones. 

[00:27:32] Louis Goodman: If we were to just Google Bree Sullivan-Howell in South Georgia, attorney. We'd probably find you. 

[00:27:40] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Oh, I think you'd find me. I think that would not be difficult at all. 

[00:27:44] Louis Goodman: Bree. Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Anything at all that we haven't discussed? Anything that you'd like to bring up? Say? 

[00:27:51] Bree Sullivan-Howell: I can't think of anything except I wanna ask you a question. Is Alameda County where the Menendez brothers were prosecuted, or was that somewhere near there? 

[00:28:01] Louis Goodman: No, they were prosecuted in Los Angeles, which is about 400 miles south of here. Alameda County is in the San Francisco Bay area. 

[00:28:08] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Oh, okay. I had the wrong geography. So you're in San Francisco, you're in the cold area. 

[00:28:14] Louis Goodman: Yeah, yeah. Basically, yes. 

[00:28:16] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Gets it gets cold up there. You think about California being warm and wonderful and sunny, but I hear San Francisco can be a little chilly.

[00:28:24] Louis Goodman: Yeah, well there's Mark Twain's famous line. You know, the coldest winter I ever spent was summer in San Francisco. 

[00:28:32] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Oh, is that a quote? I never heard that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't do cold weather. I'm a South Georgia person we got, we have 75 degree weather most of the year. It's wonderful. 

[00:28:43] Louis Goodman: Well, I was in Orlando not too long ago for a podcasting conference a few weeks ago, and the weather was just like San Francisco. It was cool. Sort of cloudy, rainy, and then the weather would get nice and would be sunny, but it wasn't particularly hot. But of course that was in, I dunno. January, I guess. 

[00:29:03] Bree Sullivan-Howell: January. Well, we had snow a few weeks ago, 

[00:29:06] Louis Goodman: So I heard. 

[00:29:07] Bree Sullivan-Howell: Oh, we had four inches of snow. My house looked like I was sitting at my, this desk right here looking out. It looked like a ski slope in my yard. Unbelievable. We've never had it like that here, so very interesting times. 

[00:29:21] Louis Goodman: Bree Sullivan-Howell, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer Podcast. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. 

[00:29:30] Louis Goodman: That's it for today's episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and follow the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com, where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs and information.

Thanks to my guests, and to Joel Katz for music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

[00:30:10] Bree Sullivan-Howell: About the law? I don't know. Let me think about that.