Helen Hoeffel - Legal Assistance for Seniors

Louis Goodman / Helen Hoeffel - Transcript

[00:00:03] Louis Goodman: Welcome to the Alameda County Bar Association and the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. I'm your host Louis Goodman. Today we welcome Helen Hoeffel to the program. Ms. Hoeffel is an ACBA board member and chairs the business section for the Bar Association. She is a staff attorney with Legal Assistance for Seniors.

She has extensive litigation, transactional, and experience in both civil and criminal law. And she has two published appellate cases from the California Court of Appeal. She hikes, bikes, camps, swing dances, plays women's soccer, and is learning to ride a horse. Helen Hoeffel, welcome to the Alameda County Bar Association and the Love Thy Lawyer podcast.

[00:00:57] Helen Hoeffel: Thank you, Louis. It's great to be here. 

[00:01:00] Louis Goodman: It's so nice to see you. It's nice to meet you. Where are you speaking to us from right now? 

[00:01:07] Helen Hoeffel: I am from, I am speaking from the LAS offices in Oakland. We are on Hegenberger Road right by the airport. 

[00:01:14] Louis Goodman: Can you describe what sort of practice that you have? 

[00:01:20] Helen Hoeffel: Yes, absolutely.

I've been here at Legal Assistance for seniors for two years. And we have several areas of law that we help seniors with people over the age of 60 who are residents of Alameda County. I am in the housing and tenant housing on the tenant side and also consumer teams. And then we also have attorneys who help with Conservatorships, and they're court appointed in Conservatorships to represent the Conservatees.

We also have a guardianship section and they help minor, they help their guardianships, where the guardian is usually relative caring for a minor. We also have public benefits, counseling and advocacy, and we do elder abuse restraining orders, and we do, I can't forget anybody. We also help in the high cap, which is health insurance, counseling and advocacy. And that is for anybody with a Medicare question of which there are many. And then we have a continuing education section and that their outreach go out to senior centers to do presentations and tell people about their rights and also about what we do here at LAS.

[00:02:43] Louis Goodman: How do most of your clients find you? 

[00:02:46] Helen Hoeffel: That's a good question. We do have the outreach. A lot of seniors call after hearing about us through the presentations at the senior centers, we have word of mouth. I have friends of friends calling who have used our services before. We are also in publications through the court, and the court will from the bench, tell litigants about us if they need help, and then other organizations refer to us, and we also refer to them for practices outside our area. 

[00:03:16] Louis Goodman: Where do you get your funding from? 

[00:03:18] Helen Hoeffel: We have a patchwork of funding, which is probably not unusual. We get funding from the state bar for internships, and we have county funds and various funds. We have some private funding. So that's definitely an area that is getting more attention in the current environment when people are having their funding pulled.

[00:03:41] Louis Goodman: How long have you been doing this kind of work? 

[00:03:44] Helen Hoeffel: This kind of work? In this organization I've been doing for two years. I did a lot of real estate title practice back several years ago, and that was title, litigation, real estate, title, litigation, and it did bring up. Some of the areas of practice that I do now, and that would be clearing title that had probate, a probate involved and some, we also had some elder abuse cases where the elder was claiming that there was fraud in procuring the loan.

That was the real estate bubble days. And so just, and just also my general experience in handling cases and. Resolving but all comes, it all comes to the to fruition. 

[00:04:31] Louis Goodman: Where are you from originally? 

[00:04:33] Helen Hoeffel: I was born in San Diego, but I grew up in Seattle, so I, but our fam, my family moved up there when I was five, so I really spent my whole formative years in Seattle, which was lovely.

And then I came down to California for law school. I went to Southwestern in Los Angeles, and I've been in California ever since. 

[00:04:54] Louis Goodman: Where'd you go to college? 

[00:04:55] Helen Hoeffel: I went to Santa Clara University. 

[00:04:57] Louis Goodman: How did you find being at Santa Clara, where presumably the weather was at least a little warmer than it was in Seattle?

What was that like coming down from the Pacific Northwest down to the Bay Area? 

[00:05:10] Helen Hoeffel: It hooked me, shall I say, I did go back up to Seattle for maybe six months to a year at some point between college and law school. But I really think I was meant to be in California and now I have a couple of kids and a husband, and we all do all the outdoor things that always involve lovely weather.

So it's very hard to imagine ever going away from this. 

[00:05:34] Louis Goodman: When did you first start thinking about being a lawyer and then when did you actually decide, yeah, I'm really gonna do this and fill out the applications and send them the money and really apply to law school? 

[00:05:51] Helen Hoeffel: I've been doing some thinking about this because I thought that you might ask that question.

I really began thinking about it when I was doing some jobs after college that were not very fulfilling, not very challenging, and thinking, this is not my career. I, this is not the area that I want to practice in. I knew several lawyers, and it was during their law school days. I actually went into the library to see what is, what are these cases they're reading and what is this all about?

And that had me realize that it was a good profession for me because I love to read and write, and I thought that it was compelling to be able to help people, so make a difference. Those were my, those were right, my reasons. And also just being part of the community because it meant helping people in the community to resolve disputes and whatever else they needed.

[00:06:53] Louis Goodman: So you took some time off between college and law school? 

[00:06:55] Helen Hoeffel: I did. I worked at Apple Computer and that always raises the joke that my mom tells my kids. If I had only stayed there, I'd be a multimillionaire. And then of course, I'd tell my kids that if I had, I wouldn't have you because it would be a different life path, so I'd rather have you than those multimillions.

So I did that work. It was semi marketing, semi customer service, a little bit of editing. And then I also worked for, oh gosh, it was a company called M Square Microtech. I haven't thought about them in a long time, but it was a, they made devices for computers. It was a manufacturing and office place, and that was really, I knew not something that I, not the work that I wanted to go do every day.

[00:07:46] Louis Goodman: So you decided to apply to law school And 

[00:07:49] Helen Hoeffel: I did. I thought it would be a good career. I was looking for a career, so I thought it would be good for me. And I applied to law school. I took, I studied, went to the library every day while I was working at Apple. I would tell my friends who were used to going out to lunch with me, going to the library.

I have to study for the lsat. So I did that, applied to law school and then went. 

[00:08:12] Louis Goodman: Can you give us a brief history of your career? So you graduate from law school, you're now with Legal Assistance for Seniors. Can you talk a little bit about what you've done in between, because I've read your resume and it's very impressive. Our audience doesn't know as much about you as I do. 

[00:08:31] Helen Hoeffel: Absolutely. When I first started practicing, I was at a small general civil litigation firm in San Francisco and they, it consisted of two partners, so I did a lot of different kinds of law and they actually let me take on cases, so it was really good learning experience.

Then I, they split up and this dissolved the firm. So I did a little bit of contracting work until I fell into working as outside counsel for Farmer's Insurance. So I did a lot of personal injury and that's where I got my trial experience and a whole bunch of depositions, mediations, arbitrations, client meetings, you name it.

I did it there. After that, I needed a little bit more challenge and I guess a, a change from that subject area, and I applied for a job at a real estate title, insurance firm, and I'm so glad that it happened because I never would've thought that I would like it so much. I really, I realized that I liked real estate classes in law school, and I think it's because of the puzzle aspect of title, keeping it clear what's not, keeping it clear, how do I clear it?

So I really enjoyed that a lot. 

[00:09:50] Louis Goodman: And some of your appellate work deals with those kind of specific issues, doesn't it? 

[00:09:55] Helen Hoeffel: Yes. So I had one partner who did not like to write, and so I did all his writing happily, and I taught myself to do appeals. I taught myself the law and procedure and took over doing appeals from that partner who was glad to hand it to me.

And then I continued doing that at Fidel National Title Company, where I went next inside council and then I needed to change because I love change, as you can tell from my, from my resume, I love to learn new things. So then I went to the criminal appeals side of the appellate work, and I did, I handled indigent criminal appeals that were court appointed through appellate projects, such as the first district appellate project, and that was very interesting, satisfying, very meaningful, challenging work.

It was also very solo, very, it needed more interaction. So that's when I applied for the position at LAS and now I'm in the office almost every day and I really like that. 

[00:11:01] Louis Goodman: If a young person were coming out of college and thinking about a career, would you recommend the law? 

[00:11:07] Helen Hoeffel: I would, it has been a great career for me. I've done so much personal development, I've, and also professional development. Intellectual development. It's really great for curious people who like to advocate, people who like to read and write, and I think there are a lot of people who do those kinds of things, extroverts and introverts, and they can all contribute to some area of law that's meaningful and helpful to the public.

[00:11:40] Louis Goodman: I'd like you to talk a little bit about your work with the Alameda County Bar Association and how you got involved with that and what sort of things you do for it. What do you get outta that? Since you know that's all pro bono? 

[00:11:53] Helen Hoeffel: Yes, absolutely. I've been active with the Bar Association for a long time. I really like to connect with people and I like to contribute to the community and be part of it.

So for a long time when we were pre-COVID, I went to a lot of events. I really liked the comradery and collegiality of the association. Then, then I was invited to apply for a bar board position, so I was very happy to do that, and this is my first year on the board. It's been really interesting and I'm honored to be part of the process that makes this whole machine work and keeps this legal community together.

[00:12:37] Louis Goodman: Yeah, me too. 

[00:12:39] Helen Hoeffel: Yeah, they're really great people. 

[00:12:42] Louis Goodman: I agree. What do you think is the best advice you've ever received, and what advice would you give to a young person just starting a law practice? 

[00:12:54] Helen Hoeffel: Great questions. The best advice I received was in a couple of places from people I actually don't know, but like a public place. And one was when I was wanting to, to improve some public speaking skills. I was on a person's website who said, be yourself, be authentic. That is the best way to speak because you will reach, people will see that you are genuine, and that's really the most successful way that you can be a speaker.

So I really, I embody that into my life as well, so that the choices that I've made as a lawyer are ones that are, make me feel authentic. So practicing in the areas that I like. Of course there have been some down times when it hasn't been the greatest, but that happens to everybody. But for the most part, just trying to be the most genuine I can.

And then also RBG was a big influence of mine and the way that she was creative and said, you don't have to follow a straight path. You can get outcomes that are good and that you want from going an unexpected way and thinking creatively about how you get there. And she won some of her when she was a practicing lawyer, some great cases that way, and she was funny.

[00:14:30] Louis Goodman: Can you tell us a little bit about your family life, how the practice of law has fit into your family life, how your family life has fit into the practice of law, and what sort of things you enjoy doing recreationally on your own or with your family? 'cause I know that you're very active. 

[00:14:48] Helen Hoeffel: Yes, yes. I've been lucky that, that you have coexisted rather well, my professional and personal life.

I was fortunate enough to be able to work part-time when I was, when I had my, when my kids were younger, and was able to pick them up from nursery, school, preschool, all the way through, really, until they went to high school. And then also it sparked a lot of discussions around the table, just about fairness and justice and gray areas and advocating.

Saying no, just being a strong person and I think my kids have really benefited from that. Then activities, I grew up camping. We did a lot of camping and I've done that with my family. Also love getting out in nature, clearing my head, no devices, just being out and doing basic lovely things together in, you know, scenic places.

Backpacking as well. I just made reservations for a backpacking trip and desolation wilderness for this summer. And then we loved to go to the beach, so we used to do an annual trip to Pismo Beach every year and surf. Surf on big boards. Not the small, we're not, I'm not too agile, so the big floaty boards.

I love the sun. It's all that 

[00:16:19] Louis Goodman: I'm impressed with any surfing. What about the horseback riding? 

[00:16:23] Helen Hoeffel: That's pretty new. I always wanted to ride a horse when I was younger and we actually had a stable near my house. There is a horse stable up the street from my house, the Skyline Stables, so I just went for it a couple years ago and started taking lessons up there and I love it.

It's amazingly calming, which I was an aspect I didn't really expect. Then I love to learn new things, so it's just been challenging, learning new muscles on the body, all of that. 

[00:16:57] Louis Goodman: Let's say you came into some real money, let's say three or four billion dollars. Let's say you'd stayed at Apple and it invested appropriately. You had three or four billion dollars came into your life. What, if anything, would you do differently? 

[00:17:13] Helen Hoeffel: This is a little boring, but I must say there is not much to my life I would do differently. I feel so grateful that I have the family I do and the friends and this work environment and the work we do. So on a personal level, I would definitely have a personal chef make me dinners to put in the fridge or the freezer for the week.

That would be the best and oh, maybe a fund to go to Maui every year, something like that. But on a bigger level, I've been thinking about how to reach more people through our office and really through any nonprofit trying to help the vulnerable. Our population is lower income seniors in the Alameda County area, and we do outreach.

I think also our clients would benefit from problem solving and interaction with not necessarily lawyers, but what about getting the two populations on either side of the age range together, younger people interacting with our seniors to help the seniors with all of the electronic device issues that they have or whatever it may be.

I just, I like the idea of creating community from maybe un in imaginative ways, shall we say. So maybe community centers with different ages of people that you wouldn't normally put together. 

[00:18:43] Louis Goodman: Let's say you had a magic wand, there was one thing in the world you could change in the world of the law, in the world of programs that are helpful to people or just in the world in general. What one thing would you wanna change? 

[00:18:55] Helen Hoeffel: Wouldn't it be great if we could just divert people's voracious appetites for power? And for money to instilling hope in other people, instilling integrity and help them learn about fairness and justice in the gray areas that are involved in living and how right and wrong is not black and white, it comes from different experiences. I know that's vague, but I think if we had more people who are focused on those kinds of values, there would be a lot more peaceful, hopeful living and justice in the world. 

[00:19:39] Louis Goodman: One more question before we bring in some people who are on the call. Let's say you had a Super Bowl ad, someone gave you 60 seconds on the Super Bowl, huge audience. What would you wanna say? What kind of an ad would you wanna put out there to this enormous group of people? 

[00:19:56] Helen Hoeffel: Take one moment to just do one thing, to make somebody smile, make somebody feel hope. Especially you just never know what circumstances people are living in. And it's amazing what one little grain of hope can do for people and it spreads.

[00:20:15] Louis Goodman: We have some other people on the call. And let me start with Theresa Green. Ms. Green, can you unmute and join us and do you have a question or a comment for Helen Hoeffel? 

[00:20:28] Teresa Green: I do. Hi Louis. Hi Helen. 

[00:20:30] Helen Hoeffel: Hi, Teresa. 

[00:20:31] Teresa Green: My question is, could you share one of your success stories from your period working for Legal Assistance for Seniors?

[00:20:39] Helen Hoeffel: Oh, yes. There's a couple that come to mind. One of my early successes was helping a man who actually couldn't, he could read but not write very well, and he bought a truck at a dealership that he was very happy with and proud of. He also bought warranties. He thought he was buying one all-inclusive warranty, and it was $11,000 in total.

And it turns out it was seven different small warranties for things that you would never use. And so we helped him get back his $8,000. And it was since it was early in the time that I was here, it was so rewarding and made me feel like I could really make a difference. He was very happy. 

[00:21:24] Louis Goodman: Thanks, Theresa Thomas Butzbach. Can you unmute and join us? 

[00:21:29] Thomas Butzbach: Helen, first of all, I just wanna say your personality just comes across on this Zoom like you can't believe and you are authentic. There's no doubt about it. And I could sit with you and talk to you, but what really interests me, not your background is fascinating, but the horseback riding. Can you explain to you, go to Skyline Stables. How does a typical lesson go? 

[00:21:54] Helen Hoeffel: I get to, I get to saddle up the horse, so I do everything to get it ready. And now that I've been taking lessons for about a year, I can do that all by myself, tack up the horse. So I do that. And then I take the horse to the ring and we do all kinds of really difficult things like steer the horse and make the horse stop, make the horse walk and trot.

And it sounds all very simple and I thought it might be, but it is definitely not. But my ultimate goal is really to be able to go out on the trails. When I made my Desolation wilderness reservation, actually just this morning, there was a dropdown menu about your mode, I think, or, and there was equestrian and I thought, oh, okay.

That is definitely something I wanna work up to. 

[00:22:48] Thomas Butzbach: Terrific. Thank you for being here today. 

[00:22:50] Helen Hoeffel: Thank you. 

[00:22:52] Louis Goodman: Thanks, Tom. Kirsten Voyles, can you unmute and join us? 

[00:22:57] Kirsten Voyles: Helen and I work together. Some of these questions, I'm loving hearing all the answers, especially a personal chef. As of we've had conversations about lack of lunch options on Hagen Burger. I'm gonna ask the opposite of Theresa's question about one of your most challenging cases you've had at LAS. 

[00:23:17] Helen Hoeffel: Yes. I think the very challenging cases are ones that have to do with a bigger picture than the legal issue. And so there's the legal issue that we can help with, but then there's the social emotional, mental disability issue that is, it can be really heartbreaking and it happens more than I expected. And so that's been something that's been challenging to, I can think of several clients, but just when their circumstances are so dire they weep on the phone because they're in such distress and I can't always help. So that's really hard. That's when I go next door to Christian and say, I had this experience, Christian.

And he'll say, vent. Go ahead. Yeah, so 

[00:24:14] Louis Goodman: Thank you, Kristen. Christian Ramos. 

[00:24:18] Christian Ramos: Hello. I work with Helen as well, so yes, enjoying hearing more about you. 

[00:24:23] Louis Goodman: Wait a minute. I have a question. Christian. Yes. Before we, before you ask yours, are you the Christian that she goes to and vents to? 

[00:24:31] Christian Ramos: Yes, that is me. 

[00:24:33] Louis Goodman: Okay. 

[00:24:33] Christian Ramos: I enjoy it though. It's nice. I'll vent back to her. I guess my question is more going to law school, you learn how important it is for certain wording, and so I feel like it's hard to carry that out through your normal life. Such as things that are so common, like downloading an app, you sign the licensing agreement, for example, horseback riding.

I'm sure they had you sign something. How do you navigate that new mindset that you leave law school with and also just everyday life? Do you take into account the specific wording on things, or do you just, we can't change it, just sign it. 

[00:25:08] Helen Hoeffel: Yes. That is a challenge. Definitely. I think that's one thing that requires such a balance is as lawyers, we're very, we're not pessimistic, but we we're critical minded. And so we're trained to think of the worst thing that could happen and then how to prevent that. And so when I'm looking in any kind of contract like anybody else, when it's the 15 page agree, sign and agree here, then I don't read the 15 pages.

But when it's something critical, when it's something like you're waving like. It could result in bodily injury. If it's something that I know that I might not agree to their terms, then I look at it a lot more carefully and I have proposed other language out outside the law. Inside the law, I've done a lot of negotiating of contracts and at at certain point you do have to stop the negotiation and you have to compromise, and you have to agree.

But sometimes I won't, trying to think of a situation, but I've said, nevermind, this doesn't sound like something I want to do, because you won't agree to whatever this term is. So yeah, it makes us very critical minded and it's hard to keep a balance. 

[00:26:24] Louis Goodman: Thanks, Christian. Brianna Fluhrer. 

[00:26:28] Brianna Fluhrer: Hi Helen. So good to see you.

[00:26:30] Helen Hoeffel: Good to see you. 

[00:26:32] Brianna Fluhrer: I have to ask, what would some of your advice be to new up and coming lawyers who have, you know, just entered the profession? 

[00:26:38] Helen Hoeffel: Yes, absolutely. I think it's really important to learn what you're learning, but then also keep your options open. Because as you can see from my resume, I took a meandered path and it wasn't always planned.

Sometimes it was a suggestion from other people. The criminal appeals was a suggestion from someone else, and those were some of the best six years of my practice. And so I think talking to people in the legal community, taking a chance to learn at every corner is so important. And also just keeping in touch with people because you never know where you might encounter them in the future.

They could be a good mentor, a good contact. They could introduce you to someone who could just change your career in a positive way. I think those are all things that I would say. 

[00:27:37] Brianna Fluhrer: I'm glad to thank you for all the help you've given me with my writing. It has really helped me out. And my second question, if we have time, is what's your biggest backpacking tip?

I'll also be backpacking near Desolation Wilderness this summer. 

[00:27:50] Helen Hoeffel: A bear canister. You have to be able to fit all your food in a bear canister and then put it very far away from your campsite. When I was up sleeping at Grouse Lake with nobody else around, nobody to call to or help if a bear came by. I was very glad I knew about the bear canister.

[00:28:10] Louis Goodman: If no one gets anything else out of this podcast, knowing about the Bear canister is a really good thing to have, have listened for. 

[00:28:21] Helen Hoeffel: Absolutely. 

[00:28:23] Louis Goodman: I have a few more questions. Is there someone who you'd like to meet, someone living or someone out of the historical past who you would like to meet if possible?

[00:28:34] Helen Hoeffel: I always wanted to meet Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I thought maybe in my lifetime it would happen. I wrote to her at least once, just to thank her for her amazing contribution to the law for all of the positive role modeling she did for attorneys and anybody interested in the law and justice. Anybody coming into my office would be able to tell that I'm a huge fan.

I have a lot of RBG paraphernalia around, so definitely she's someone I would love to have met. 

[00:29:14] Louis Goodman: I noticed that Alexandra Havrylyshyn has joined us on the podcast. 

[00:29:21] Alexandra Havrylyshyn: I'm Alexandra Havrylyshyn and I am really excited to be here and hear from you, Helen. I know that you sit pro tem, and I don't know how much you can talk about that, but I do wonder how that Influences your work when you know your, a job at Legal Assistance for Seniors doing direct client services? 

[00:29:45] Helen Hoeffel: Definitely. It's in general a fabulous experience because in the subjects that I do, it's direct litigant contact, so like in small claims and the civil and domestic violence harassment, restraining orders, there's, they're usually not represented.

Direct, the direct contact with the community is very fulfilling and meaningful. Then it's impacted my practice here because it gives me a different perspective of adjudicating, it makes you really look at both sides, and advocacy, of course, is what we all do and it's so important. So it's been very informative for my practice.

[00:30:37] Louis Goodman: Have you noticed, Helen, how different the courtroom looks from the position of the bench as opposed from council table? 

[00:30:46] Helen Hoeffel: Oh, yes. I'll never forget the first time I stepped out to handle a pro tem case or pro tem Calendar, and I was, I've tried to explain or express the feeling. It really is the first time putting on the robe and really opening the door.

It was the opening the door like, oh, here I come. It's having your entrance on the stage, or something like that. And it's really, if you've jumped from a high dive before, that's what it's like. You can't, you can't warm up for it or you can't try it. You just have to jump and trust that it, that's, you're gonna land well and it's all going to work out.

So, yeah, very different perspective. A lot of trusting faces looking to me to solve their issue, and so it's very humbling. I, it makes me, it makes me just remember and pay attention to the fact that I wanna do the absolute best job that I can, because all of these people are trusting me to do that. So hard, but it's very fulfilling and I really like doing it.

[00:31:55] Louis Goodman: Alexandra, thank you so much for your. Question and your comment. I've just got a couple of more questions for you, Helen. If someone wants to get in touch with you or get in touch with Legal Assistance for Seniors, what's the best way to do that? 

[00:32:13] Helen Hoeffel: You can get in touch with me through email. That's probably the best way, and my email is H Hoeffel at the short way is LASHICAP, but is L-A-S-H-I-C-A p.org.

You can find our website just Googling Legal Assistance for Seniors. You can Google my name, Helen h, and last name is H-O-E-F-F-E-L, and you'll find me, I'm very open to talking to anybody about really anything. I'm happy to talk to you about a career question or a legal question or an LAS question, so please don't hesitate to contact me if you need me.

[00:32:54] Louis Goodman: Thank you. Helen, is there anything else that you'd like to talk about? Anything that we haven't touched on? Anything that you'd like to discuss? Anything you'd like to comment on? Anything at all? 

[00:33:05] Helen Hoeffel: I've been thinking about ways for the nonprofits to keep existing in this climate and some colleagues and I were talking about partnering with law firms more and in order for law firms to want to allow us to have their younger lawyers to do some litigation, do some volunteer work, we can give them that experience and then they can get, they can get the, it can be like a marketing tool for them to say that they've helped whatever nonprofit in the Bay Area. So I love having connections, having people see how they can help each other, how the legal community can come together from all different perspectives to just really enhance what we do as lawyers. So talking about those partnerships I think would be a one way for, for the nonprofits to keep doing the good work that they do. 

[00:34:06] Louis Goodman: Helen Hoeffel, thank you so much for joining us today on The Love Thy Lawyer and the Alameda County Bar Association podcasts.

It really has been a pleasure to talk to you and I wanna thank all of the people who have joined us and contributed to this conversation. I really appreciate your being part of it, and look forward to seeing you the next time we have a ACBA podcast. 

[00:34:32] Helen Hoeffel: Thank you Louis. Thank you everybody. 

[00:34:34] Louis Goodman: That's it for today's edition of Love Thy Lawyer in collaboration with the Alameda County Bar Association. Please visit the lovethylawyer.com website where you can find links to all of our episodes. Also please visit the Alameda County Bar Association website at acbanet.org where you can find more information about our support of the legal profession, promoting excellence in the legal profession and facilitating equal access to justice.

Thanks to Joel Katz for music, Brian Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media, and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

[00:35:22] Helen Hoeffel: So I had a good balance. As a good a balance as is possible in anybody's life.