Henry Cox - Problem Solving at All Levels

Louis Goodman / Henry Cox - Transcript

[00:00:03] Louis Goodman: Welcome to Love Thy Lawyer, where we talk with attorneys about their lives and careers. Today we welcome Henry Cox to the podcast. Mr. Cox has practiced as a litigation attorney in 28 states, representing municipalities, Fortune 500 companies, small businesses and individuals in both state and federal court. He has also argued appeals in front of the Kansas Supreme Court and the eighth and ninth circuits. Mr. Cox also has extensive experience in mediation and arbitration. More recently, he has been writing novels and has published several books that are available on Amazon. Henry Cox, welcome to Love Thy Lawyer. 

[00:00:51] Henry Cox: Thank you very much. Good to be here. 

[00:00:54] Louis Goodman: Where are you speaking to us from right now? 

[00:00:56] Henry Cox: Shawnee, Kansas, which is a Kansas suburb in the Kansas City area. 

[00:01:00] Louis Goodman: How long have you been practicing attorney in Kansas? 

[00:01:05] Henry Cox: Since 1981. 

[00:01:07] Louis Goodman: And are you licensed in other jurisdictions as well? 

[00:01:11] Henry Cox: Missouri. A lot of attorneys at the Kansas City area are licensed in both states.

[00:01:15] Louis Goodman: Can you describe what sort of practice you have now? 

[00:01:22] Henry Cox: My practice now is purely as a neutral mediator, arbitrator, hearing officer, and even that of pulling back more and more. 

[00:01:31] Louis Goodman: Can you describe what sort of practice you had before becoming an arbitrator and mediator? 

[00:01:38] Henry Cox: Complex civil litigation that started off with municipalities and those issues were interesting because we had one of the highest ratios of section 1983 cases against police officers, municipalities when Owens versus Independence by the Supreme Court took away immunity, and then as a young attorney, I got hired by TWA when it was flying around the world, litigating and eventually settling down with major law firms. My focus, lots of different areas, but my focus became civil rights litigation. 

[00:02:13] Louis Goodman: Where are you from originally?

[00:02:14] Henry Cox: I'm from Kansas City. Born in Kansas City, Kansas, and raised in what's called the Shawnee Mission area, Johnson County area on the Kansas side. 

[00:02:24] Louis Goodman: Is that where you went to high school? 

[00:02:26] Henry Cox: I did. I did Shawnee Mission North, which was the original high school. 

[00:02:31] Louis Goodman: You eventually went to a kinda high powered D1 school in Baylor, in Waco, Texas. 

[00:02:39] Henry Cox: That's true. 

[00:02:40] Louis Goodman: How did you ever go to Baylor? 

[00:02:44] Henry Cox: A series of events, and I was looking at some schools, or I had an injury late in my senior year and it's, and I was puny. I was a year younger than everybody else, and as they always said in, I was the shortest division one hurdler in history, probably. It finally started growing, but in any event, I had some small school offers and then I looked at Michigan and a couple of others in. Went down south, I said, oh, I kinda like this. And Baylor's a beautiful campus, beautiful place, and went down there purely for academics. And as it ended up, I made the track team as well.

But the, my primary goal was the academics at Baylor and it does have a good program. 

[00:03:25] Louis Goodman: So being a Baylor bear wasn't the first thing on your list of reasons to go? 

[00:03:30] Henry Cox: No. It actually started off in honors pre-med program and eventually shifted over to a different double major and a minor and all that sort of things.

[00:03:39] Louis Goodman: Now, ultimately, you went to law school at Washburn University School of Law back in Topeka, Kansas. 

[00:03:48] Henry Cox: Correct. 

[00:03:49] Louis Goodman: Did you take some time off between when you graduated from Baylor and when you went to Washburn, or did you just go straight through? 

[00:03:56] Henry Cox: I went straight through. 

[00:03:58] Louis Goodman: Now Washburn is, it's a very famous school really, in Kansas. Bob Dole graduated from there and a lot of very prominent Kansas attorneys and judges graduated from Washburn. 

[00:04:09] Henry Cox: Yeah. Bill Curtis was former newscaster was a graduate too. And actually my wife babysat his kids when he was in law school. 

[00:04:18] Louis Goodman: When did you first start thinking about being a lawyer? When did you first know that you were a lawyer? Then the second part of that question is, and at what point did you decide, I'm really gonna do this. I'm really gonna apply to law school. I'm gonna send in the money, I'm gonna write the application, take the LSAT, that sort of thing. 

[00:04:39] Henry Cox: Actually it's a split history there. I really didn't decide I was gonna be a lawyer till after I graduated from law school, but I had a scholarship to Syracuse for another program.

And that's where I was headed. And my dear old mom, she pleaded for me to take the LSAT. And so I took it late and set off a few applications or whatever and I was literally getting things ready to pack my Mach one to go to Syracuse and my mom comes out because I'm now back home and she comes out carrying a couple of letters of late acceptances to law school.

My mother was one of those that never had to raise her voice that heard was heard loud and clear. So I ended up in law school. 

[00:05:23] Louis Goodman: What was the experience of being in law school like for you? 

[00:05:26] Henry Cox: I don't wanna say it was a game, but it was, I think it, the way I've always looked at things is oftentimes and, seeing myself as an observer more than anything, but you obviously get in the mix. And so it was interesting. 

[00:05:42] Louis Goodman: Can you give a brief history of your career from the time you graduated from law school through this arbitration, mediation, book writing career that you have going now? 

[00:05:56] Henry Cox: Yeah. I guess a lot of people say it one way or another, but it's always the accidental this. So in some respects, it's the accidental attorney, accidental litigator, accidental author. Coming outta law school, I was accepted to an LLM program at New York Law School. It was the first ABA's certified program in entertainment media law. And in the meantime, I fell in love and got married and stayed in Topeka. And I had law clerked at the city of Topeka and I was their first full-time attorney.

And within a few years I then I went to the city of Overland Park, which is pretty well known suburb of Kansas City and they big into development, and so I did all of their civil litigation and zoning planning. The first red roof in without a red roof, the first white castle that wasn't white and interviewed by Newsweek a couple of times and other medias drafted the second no smoking ordinance San Francisco beat us by two weeks on the first no smoke, you know, and just going through those hearings, it was fascinating, and through a couple of other attorneys said, Hey, did you see there's a job at TWA? It sounds like it's interesting. And so out of this national search, I somehow got hired by TWA as a kid and, uh, says, spent a lot of time just traveling all over litigating cases.

A lot, lot, a lot of arbitrations, both commercial and labor. Got promoted, mandatory promotion to vice from acting vice president to staff, vice president, and by that time with three kids and lots of time in New York City, no offense against New York City, but it wasn't where I was wanting to raise my kids.

And so then a lot of others were interested in, big law firms in Kansas City were interested. So I got into the big law firm business and did that for a while. And I, uh. Went to my wife one day and said, I'm tired of chasing the dollar. I'm gonna, I'm not gonna do this for money anymore, in a sense. Two in college went on the way and she about had a heart attack.

And, uh, so I did solo and in, in the meantime, the courts were migrating to this whole thing of ADR and mediation. This was in 1991, leapfrogging backwards, and the judges and attorneys and litigators. Really had no clue about ADR. And so I was asked to sit on these different judicial committees and then set up the initial training programs, to train attorneys and judges. Did that for 25 years plus along the way and became a neutral in the process. And so then as I was weaning away from active litigation, it just became more of a more natural focus of serving as a neutral. 

[00:08:46] Louis Goodman: You've been around the law pretty much your entire professional career. You have a lot of skills, there's a lot of things that you could do.

What is it about the law that keeps you or kept you as a practicing attorney? What is it about the law that you liked well enough to stay? 

[00:09:05] Henry Cox: Yeah, for me it was the cutting edge and there was always some new great, invigorating issue that I was taking on, and that has its ups and downs, taking on new and edge of the envelope type issues, but that's what kept me going.

[00:09:22] Louis Goodman: If a young person were just coming outta college thinking about a career, would you recommend going into law? 

[00:09:28] Henry Cox: For the most part, yes, and I've written plenty of recommendation letters and everything else, but I'd first ask them why and also let them know that actually a fairly small percentage of lawyers become trial lawyers.

I draw a big distinction bet between trial lawyers and litigation lawyers and trial lawyers. Shook, Hardi & Bacon was a big law firm in Kansas City, and they, big pharmaceutical cases, but they also represented the tobacco industry. And I remember several conversations. One in particular, guy was a full equity partner, had been there for 20 some years as a litigation attorney, and he was their expert on cigarette filters.

He, he'd never said anything at the podium, at a courtroom, but he was at every trial. Ready to provide a background on cigarette filters. So I draw that big distinction. So very small percentage, but the law is so applicable to different things in our society and culture. So I would encourage anybody to have a legal background for just about any serious profession or career. I think it's great. 

[00:10:37] Louis Goodman: There's a lot of young attorneys listening to this podcast. I think that for almost any attorney there's the notion that one has to have a book of business. Even if you work for a big firm, you work for a small firm, you work in a solo practice, pretty much other than having a government job, it's really important to have a book of business people who see you as their attorney.

And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that, comment on that notion, and then just talk about how the business of practicing law has gone for you. 

[00:11:12] Henry Cox: I hate the business of practicing law for different reasons. 

[00:11:15] Louis Goodman: Most lawyers do. Yeah. 

[00:11:17] Henry Cox: I prefer the practicing of it and not the business of it. It's so many different tiers than what you want to do, but a law firm, for example, I'd always tell attorneys is they're climbing the ladder in hoping for partnership and saying, you need to start saving money for a year or two before you accept a partnership.

And they're going, what? Your taxes change dramatically and now you're gonna have to pay quarterly taxes and all that sort of thing. And that's a shock to them. And then when you get in, there are even in relatively small law firms, but certainly mid-size and big law firms there, there are many senior partners who I call are parasitic business developers.

They got in and they just kept waiting for the bread comes to fall as an attorney would retire or something would happen with the client, and they actually never developed a client. And I knew attorneys that were in their seventies and they had never, they had inherited every piece of business. And so there were attorneys that sit back and are very parasitic in how they grow their influence with the firm.

[00:12:27] Louis Goodman: My sense is that's not you. 

[00:12:29] Henry Cox: No, my mine was quite the opposite that I was, I'm so complimented by wonderful people that I've interacted with. It's large companies came to me and said, Hey, will you represent us? Can you come up with a methodology for our whole practice? And, and I just would always shake my head and go, okay, this is rocket science. I love it. 

[00:12:50] Louis Goodman: You are now writing some books? 

[00:12:52] Henry Cox: Yes. 

[00:12:54] Louis Goodman: How did you decide that you wanted to spend some time writing and writing fiction. Can you talk a little bit about your book writing? And I would just say that I recently read your book, Deceit of the Earth Heavy Metal. And there it is right there. There's your copy. Here's my copy. Um, tell us a little bit about how you got into that. 

[00:13:18] Henry Cox: I've always been a researcher. Like I said, I kind, that's what I enjoyed about law school and everything else. It was being in the fray of things and I camped out at the library and, but as a kid I read the encyclopedia and people used to make fun of lots of trivial knowledge.

I was very good at Trivial Pursuit, but at any event, having a background in science and statistics and what have you is, you know, talking about this Wuhan virus going on. So I started researching it in late 2019. Actually information I was looking at was disappearing from the internet as I was, it was 50, which got me more interested.

And so then as things progressed and people started coming out publicly and all the debates about end of countries and what to do and it's not a pandemic and there, there's a tragic history to WHO, but basically the World Health Organization. I'm looking at all this original research and everything I said, you're being lied to.

It's just flat out here's what's going on. Here's the structure of the RNA for the coronavirus. And this, and it wasn't a wet market. That's impossible. It went on and on. And so people were saying, Henry, you're a lawyer. We don't want to hear you talk about science. And so I started writing these little teeny mini blurbs on social media and people were saying, okay, this is getting entry.

So I'd try to create a little story to explain the fact background. And then Sarah said, you ought to write a book. And I said, why not? I've been writing fiction, nonfiction all my life with the, in the courtroom. 

[00:14:57] Louis Goodman: Is that what the judges said about your briefs? That this, this is Henry Cox is fiction.

[00:15:02] Henry Cox: Opposing counsel. Actually, several clerks told me that the judges, they federal judges, they clerked for, that if I submitted a summary judgment brief, it was to go to their desk first before the clerks read it, 'cause it, it basically, they said I had a very entertaining style of a writing. Anyway, and so, I sat down in late February and kicked out a first draft in about three weeks, and this was before everything was technically a pandemic.

And I said, okay, these are the things that are actually happening that nobody's talking about. This is what the virus is about. And I get into the, basically the covert operators in China and all these things, and all those things actually came to pass as well. And that's the first book, deceit of the Soul.

Okay, there we go. Yeah. And there are two, two main characters. Protagonist is a female that was taken from her family at a young age because of her academic skills and her physical prowess. And she has multiple degrees and, she had worked on prior, you have to realize that China has spent decades in pathogen research.

Unfortunately, as I found out in my book, all my books are very apolitical, and if you read politics into it, I say, that's on the reader. That's on me. I'm just giving you the information. And so she realizes that her methodology of research and planning, she thought was to protect China was actually China being ready to unleash a potential pandemic, but not a lot of people would die.

But it wasn't to kill people like the plague. It was economic based and, and so then there's another senior officer in their secret service that he's in charge of the secrecy of releasing the coronavirus and it goes back and forth between what's happening in their two lives. I'll leave it at that. And then there's a huge plan to get her, she's tried to escape from China, which is almost impossible given her notoriety.

And so a grandiose plan comes up where she's able to escape from an RAF pilot and MI six operative from the UK, uh, that they had met during different training operations. And he leads away with American covert operators to get her outta China. That's where that one goes. 

[00:17:28] Louis Goodman: This is like a, based on a true story.

[00:17:31] Henry Cox: When it first came out, actually the London Times and Google banned my book and I have no idea why the London Times did, and then as they start running the stories that, and so it was like, okay, this is intriguing conspiracy, thriller conspiracy theory, and a few months, almost a year, and two people say, oh my gosh, had it.

This is very prescient. Incredible prediction and then eventually said, how did this guy even know this stuff back in 2019, 2020? It was intriguing and, and fascinating and, uh, exciting at the same time. I said, okay, I guess maybe I can write books and, and my theme became things that are covered up for one reason or another that impact everybody and you aren't even aware of it.

[00:18:17] Louis Goodman: Let me shift gears here a little bit. Yeah. Sorry. Can you talk a little bit about your family life and how your personal life has fit into the practice of law and how the law has fit into your family life and the writing? 

[00:18:29] Henry Cox: Sure. As I'd put in there, my, my own paper chase, I ended up marrying the law school dean's daughter, and we've been married for over 43 years now.

We have three adult sons. Some step grandkids. And then the pride and joy, the center of my life is my granddaughter, and so we have wonderful interaction. I'm the dog person. My wife's the cat 

[00:18:51] Louis Goodman: person. Do you have dogs and cats? 

[00:18:54] Henry Cox: Right now we're catless, but I have my German Shepherd, which she might bark here at some point.

[00:19:01] Louis Goodman: It's not a podcast unless there's a dog barking in the background. 

[00:19:04] Henry Cox: That's right. 

[00:19:05] Louis Goodman: About recreational pursuits. What do you like to do to get your mind, off of the practice of law and the writing of books, what do you enjoy doing? 

[00:19:14] Henry Cox: Sure. My dad was born in 1912, farm boy, big family of five boys, graduated high school in 1930 and hitchhiked to Chicago to become a doctor.

It's a pretty interesting story, but he had an incredible work ethic and he passed that along. And if it's fixed. If it's broken, fix it, figure out and how to do things. I did a lot of construction and remodeling, and I do a lot of artwork and did songwriting for a while, but built two lake cabins from scratch and rehabbed several houses, including the one we're in and worked on other people's projects.

So also everybody said, why didn't you get into remodeling or whatever? I said, it's all fun and good un, until you have to deal with the clients. 

[00:20:02] Louis Goodman: Let's say you came into three or four billion dollars. What, if anything, would you do differently in your life? 

[00:20:10] Henry Cox: It would certainly be a game changer and have a couple of good friends that are billionaires and to, to me, to come into the money is a very dangerous thing and I would not invite that, as I say, even if I'm playing the lottery.

I know what I'd do with $5 million. I don't know what I'd do with 500 million because now it's like it would add to my worries and life changes, so it would change it, but I, I don't want to be that person. I would not want to win a $1 billion lottery, for example. Believe it or not, winning a bunch of money and trying to figure out how to spend it is not intellectually challenging to me.

[00:20:52] Louis Goodman: Let's say you had a magic wand. There was one thing in the world, the legal world, the writing world, just the world in general that you could change. What would you wanna wave that wand at? 

[00:21:06] Henry Cox: Making sure that nobody has such a wand, uh, destroy the wand. 

[00:21:12] Louis Goodman: Let's say someone gave you a Super Bowl ad, 60 seconds on the Super Bowl, say whatever you would like to, a very big audience, what message would you wanna put out there?

[00:21:25] Henry Cox: Sure, and it one, it's something that I pass along to associates, newer attorneys as they're struggling with what to do, the practice of law, but just about anything, including my kids. And that is you have to find the entertainment value in everything you do. In the worst case scenario, find the entertainment value, and it gets you through bad things.

It helps you enjoy good things. Let's say you're having the time of your life, the vacation of your life, the situation of your life, birth of a child, or something like that. It's fine. The entertainment, that entertainment value just really I think is fantastic. And if I didn't look at life that way, I would've been struggling. So that would be a big one on my list is no matter what's going on, good or bad. Find the entertainment value and get that locked away in your head. 

[00:22:20] Louis Goodman: If someone wants to get in touch with you, Henry Cox, what's the best way to do that? 

[00:22:26] Henry Cox: I have a new rebuilt website and then that has the accompanying email address, but the website would be ww dot henry cox.com and the email is info INFO at Henry hyphen cox.com. 

[00:22:48] Louis Goodman: And Cox is spelled COX, correct? 

[00:22:51] Henry Cox: Correct. Okay. And I'm easy to find if you Google my name. Okay. 

[00:22:55] Louis Goodman: And now if we wanna buy the books, we can get 'em on Amazon. I know I got mine there. Where else? Any anywhere else that we can find the books? 

[00:23:02] Henry Cox: Amazon is the best and only, and all my books are on Kindle. If you're a member of Kindle Unlimited, they're free and you can get the paperbacks. 

[00:23:12] Louis Goodman: So if we go to amazon.com and search Henry Cox, we can come up with your books there as well. 

[00:23:19] Henry Cox: That or the deceit series. We could, either way. 

[00:23:24] Louis Goodman: Alright, Henry, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we haven't discussed? Anything at all that you'd like to bring up? That you'd like to mention? That you'd like to talk about? 

[00:23:33] Henry Cox: No, the, yeah, there is, that is what's so intriguing about your podcast. I've watched a number of your podcasts are just fantastic. Uh, and I wish there was, there were more professions and everything that were doing what you're doing, the profession of law is incredibly dynamic and the people you draw in from different walks of life within the legal career. I think it's enlightening and it's certainly better than watching the news and that sort of thing. 

[00:23:58] Louis Goodman: Anything's better than watching the news. 

[00:24:00] Henry Cox: And, and so, uh, when I found out about your podcast and reached out, I was so complimented and I think attorneys find out that we really develop tons of skillsets to do different things and so you are finding those attorneys out there.

It is, and it's incredible number of attorneys that end up being authors, either fiction or nonfiction. Writers, one of my good friends on the internet is a retired law professor and he has a series of great books, so I appreciate the opportunity, but I think as attorneys go, don't lock yourself out and just think about kicking back with a beer and watching the sun go down, that sort of thing.

There's such a skillset, a number of skill sets that attorneys have and so much you can do with that. And I certainly would invite people to explore. What have I always meant to do? Is it too soon or is it too late? The answer of both is no. Go for it. 

[00:24:55] Louis Goodman: Henry Cox, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. 

[00:25:02] Henry Cox: Absolute pleasure and thank you so much. I appreciate it. 

[00:25:07]Louis Goodman: That's it for today's episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and follow the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com, where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs and information.

Thanks to my guests, and to Joel Katz for music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

[00:25:42] Henry Cox: And it was a zigzaggy road getting there. I had no intention of going to law school.