Ken Crutchfield - Legal Technology

Louis Goodman / Ken Crutchfield - Transcript

[00:00:03] Louis Goodman: Welcome to Love Thy Lawyer, where we generally speak to attorneys about their lives and careers. I'm your host, louis Goodman today. We welcome Ken Crutchfield to the podcast. Mr. Crutchfield is not an attorney, but he knows a lot about us. He is with the Wolters Kluwer Legal Markets Group, providing content analysis and workflow solutions.

He's been a senior Vice president at Bloomberg Tax Technology and has held executive positions at Thompson Reuters and LexisNexis. He has worked in varying industries, including tax, accounting and legal. Ken Crutchfield, welcome to Love Thy Lawyer. 

[00:00:50] Ken Crutchfield: Thank you, Louis. It's great to be here. 

[00:00:52] Louis Goodman: It's a pleasure to have you. Where are you speaking to us from right now? 

[00:00:56] Ken Crutchfield: So I am in Alexandria, Virginia, right outside of Washington, DC. This is my home and my home office. 

[00:01:04] Louis Goodman: Where is your firm located? 

[00:01:07] Ken Crutchfield: So Wolters Kluwer is actually a Dutch company, so we are headquartered about 45 minutes south of Amsterdam. Our US headquarters are in River Woods, Illinois, and then also in New York City.

[00:01:20] Louis Goodman: Can you explain a little bit about the type of work that you do and how it relates to the legal community? 

[00:01:30] Ken Crutchfield: Absolutely. So Wolters Kluwer is a company that serves professionals in a number of areas, including health, financial services, tax and accounting, and most importantly, legal. So we provide information, products and software solutions to professionals to make their work better.

And I'm responsible for the US markets legal research products. That is really what I focus on. So if you think of searching for laws, regulations, understanding those that you can better advise a client on how to comply with the law, that's the core focus. 

[00:02:09] Louis Goodman: How long have you been doing this sort of work?

[00:02:12] Ken Crutchfield: So I've been with Wolters Kluwer for nearly six years now, and that's really their core focus. But I've been in and around the legal industry coming up on 43 years. 

[00:02:23] Louis Goodman: Everyone in the legal industry from the time they walk into their first day at law school, probably until the day they die, knows Thomson Reuters and LexisNexis. Can you talk a little bit about what your work there was? 

[00:02:39] Ken Crutchfield: I started as an intern, right out of my first year in college and my first 40 hours on the job was listening to customer support calls where lawyers were calling in to try to understand how to use this fancy legal research service back in 1982.

And I really started, you know, as a very technical person, but I was able to understand and learn what the market needed and translate that to technical people. At Thomson Reuters, I actually worked in the tax and accounting area. Products that support what's called, called transfer pricing, which is really international tax compliance. Large multinational corporations that need to be able to pay their fair share of taxes in all jurisdictions, but not get double taxed. 

[00:03:24] Louis Goodman: Where are you from originally? 

[00:03:26] Ken Crutchfield: I grew up in Dayton, Ohio, but I was born in Atlanta, Georgia. 

[00:03:30] Louis Goodman: And is that where you went to, to high school in Dayton? 

[00:03:34] Ken Crutchfield: Yeah. Centerville High School, which is in a suburb of Dayton. So it was a great place to grow up and be from. 

[00:03:42] Louis Goodman: And then you went to the Ohio State, is that correct? 

[00:03:45] Ken Crutchfield: The Ohio State University? Yes. It was a great experience and a great time. Just a little side story there. I was walking around town today with a Michigan hat on because my son managed to end up coaching with Jim Harbaugh at Michigan on their football team. So I've got divided loyalties now in terms of, and a greater appreciation of a number of schools where he's worked, because it's not all just about Ohio State anymore. 

[00:04:12] Louis Goodman: Tell us where Wright state fits in and where that is.

[00:04:16] Ken Crutchfield: Well, Wright State's named after the Wright Brothers, so it's also a Dayton based school.

I got a Master's of Business Administration and MBA there. I got to learn about international business and actually learned and wrote a paper about back in the day. So it was very interesting, very fun. I learned a lot by being able to apply my MBA education to the work that I was doing. 

[00:04:38] Louis Goodman: Can you talk a little bit about applying that MBA knowledge and experience to the legal industry, and what is it about the legal industry that attracted you as a business person? 

[00:04:53] Ken Crutchfield: Sure. So I think I went through a discovery process of what I was good at, what I liked, and what other people thought was a good fit for me. So I started in a very technical role.

I literally started in the data center with the, you know, race floor and cold air blowing on the computers to keep them from overheating. And I worked my way through that by listening to conversations and realizing, you know, these business people don't understand the technical people and the technical, my process in terms of realizing there's a role for me in in business doing that kind of technical translation, that was the best I could describe it at the time. But also understanding the legal side, which as you learn a little bit more, realize lawyers are making arguments and arguments are, you know, very similar to defining and writing software, you have to come up with a tight, rational logic that works and then, you know, present that in the same way that a software engineer has to come up with tight logic that works for a software application to work.

So that was one of the areas that I thought was interesting. Another one, yes, I got to learn law a little bit more is you talk US code is where the words code come for, for software too. It's logic, it's defining the rules and you have to understand the different definitions and parameters in the law to be able to interpret what the law means. And it's the same thing that software engineers do when they write code. 

[00:06:22] Louis Goodman: So when you first got into this and you know you're telling your friends and your family, Hey, I am, you know, I'm working with lawyers, I'm using my MBA skills to work with lawyers. What did people think? What did they understand about what your work was? 

[00:06:42] Ken Crutchfield: They just, it went over their head. So most of it was, oh, so you're in computers. You know, that was the best that they could understand because the technology side was more important to them than who the customers were. So that was really the core focus there.

You could apply technology to the practice of Law or, you know, back in the days how you could do something that was essentially a Google search before anybody had ever heard of Google or the internet. 

[00:07:09] Louis Goodman: Now I remember. Back in the day, the Wang Computer System, and I know that you've had some experience with that as well.

And it was one of the very early word processing machines that was around. It really was a machine. And I wonder if you'd kind of take us through the technology that you've been through and how that technology has evolved since, let's say the Wang system, what that was and how it's evolved and kinda where you see things going.

[00:07:42] Ken Crutchfield: Sure. Digital Equipment Corporation and Wang were kind of that mid-tier that were used in a number of places. The Wang Vs systems typically in law firms were running word processing and you had a giant typing pool of basically admins that we're going through and typing up information for lawyers to be able to take and plead in court.

[00:08:03] Louis Goodman: And I just think of the technology that I've seen in my own lifetime moving forward at just such an enormous pace in the legal profession and how lawyers really can do so much more legal work given the technology. I kind of do see it going forward in that direction with AI. I don't think lawyers are going to be replaced, but I think that lawyers will be able to do more effective work using some of these new technologies.

Yes. You have to use it carefully, you know, I mean, lawyers have already gotten a lot of trouble with AI. Right. But I think if it's used carefully, I think there's, it's got a, a great future. 

[00:08:43] Ken Crutchfield: Yeah, understanding what a technology does is important so that it doesn't get misused, but I absolutely agree. I think the cerebral work that really I think gets most lawyers excited and is probably why they went to school in the first place is the type of work that they'll continue to get to do. I think more of the mundane work will go away. I think a banker's boxes with young attorneys coming in and sifting through back when discovery was paper-based versus the way it is today.

There's a lot of work that is just much more value added that's going to be done either by the billable hour or maybe fixed bid in the future. And I think that's, that's gonna be the wave of the future. 

[00:09:24] Louis Goodman: Yeah. I sometimes when a new technology comes in, you know, people are all worried about it. And I say, give it six months. You won't know how you lived without it. 

[00:09:34] Ken Crutchfield: Right. 

[00:09:35] Louis Goodman: Speaking of which, you've been talking about lawyers and working with lawyers. What is it that you really like about working with lawyers and the legal profession? You know, obviously you could work with any group of people that you wanted, but you've chosen to work with lawyers.

[00:09:52] Ken Crutchfield: Yes. Legal work is interesting because it ties so much into business. It's the guardrails for, you know, what you can and can't do in business. I think that's important. My time spent in tax, both with accountants and with lawyers, I find that tax drives a lot of decision making, and so getting creative in terms of how you can structure it, manage your business effectively to, to keep profit and still pay your fair share of taxes is a great example of the, the sort of interesting things that that law becomes. 

[00:10:24] Louis Goodman: If a young person were just graduating from college thinking about a career, would you recommend the law? 

[00:10:31] Ken Crutchfield: You know, I have very broad thoughts on that one. I would say yes, but a qualified yes, because I think for anybody in the same way that I went through that process unknowingly of figuring out what I liked, what I didn't like, what I was good at, and what other people thought. That's a process that I think everybody should go through is that kind of discovery process.

And think about those three aspects and recognize it is a journey. You have to be strong as bringing in business and keeping clients satisfied, which isn't necessarily what you're taught in law school, and if you go down the small law route, you're hanging up a shingle. You have to know how to advertise, you have to know how to get business.

You have to keep your books. Do you have to make sure people pay the bills? All those different things that aren't the activities that you were thinking about when you went to law school. 

[00:11:22] Louis Goodman: Yeah. This is something that I come back to on this podcast all the time, which is that I don't think that law schools teach any of this and I think that they're committing malpractice by not teaching. And so many lawyers ultimately end up in small private practices. Of 1, 2, 5, 10 person firms, right? Where it really is important to know something about how to be a business person. And I think that for those attorneys who go into the big firm world, that it's really critical that they have the ability to build a book of business.

And there's, there's just no, there's no getting around it. There's no avoiding it. There's, you know, unless you're going to go into the government and stay in the government in your entire life, on some level, if you're a lawyer, you've gotta be a business person. 

[00:12:20] Ken Crutchfield: Right, right. 

[00:12:22] Louis Goodman: Yeah. So anyway. That's my rant. 

[00:12:26] Ken Crutchfield: Could go, you can go in-house too. I mean ultimately for a lot is to go in-house and first thing you need to know is what the business goals and objectives are, what is success for, for the business to be able to properly advise the business on how to navigate the various issues that surface. 

[00:12:43] Louis Goodman: Do you think the legal system's fair? You know, you see it from kind of a different angle than a lot of us do, and I'm wondering from your point of view if you think the legal system is fair. 

[00:12:54] Ken Crutchfield: I think it's fair, generally speaking, for those that can participate, but I think there's a lot of challenges if you step back with access to justice, the ability for individuals to be able to participate at the lower ends of society. I've also seen a couple of studies that suggest that there is a substantial latent demand where individual consumers or even don't have enough legal guidance on the things that they're doing. So from that standpoint, I think supply and demand are out of sync. As a matter of fact, I just had a situation like that today with a small organization that I engaged with and in a certain different capacity, and I realized, you know, they're, they're kind of winging it.

And so there's definitely things like that that I think are out there. I think technology could play a substantial role in balancing that out and, you know, making justice, you know, which is the whole purpose of this is a justice system to provide, you know, fairness and equity to citizens of the United States and do things ethically.

[00:14:03] Louis Goodman: How do you define success for yourself? 

[00:14:07] Ken Crutchfield: You know, success to me is getting up and being able to look yourself in the mirror. Look yourself in the eye, feel good about what you're doing, understanding that you're helping people along the way, and trying to really pay it forward. I think that's, you know, that's an important aspect of anything that allows me, if I'm, you know, on Saturday, on a leisurely day, if I see something that I can do to help somebody, I can do that. I like to mentor. I struggle with situations where I've had jobs, and points in my career where I didn't feel like that was part of the equation in the same way.

So I like to make a difference. I like to make an impact on the profession that I'm serving. I also like to make an impact on the people that are around me, 'cause at the end of the day, you know, people in relationships are the most important. 

[00:14:57] Louis Goodman: What mistakes do you think lawyers make? 

[00:15:00] Ken Crutchfield: That's a great question. They get very protective on the legal risk and think that they're providing the best value by explaining the risk. And then saying don't cross that line. I'll give the, the analogy the way I would through it. You know, something that's five years old, it's, it's okay. Don't cross the street is really the, the issue.

You know, if there are cars coming. Rather than teaching how to look both ways, understand what's the proper risk. Indigo, when there are no cars, you tell the child, you know, don't cross the street. It's dangerous. And as a matter of fact, don't even stand on the sidewalk, stand on the other side of the sidewalk.

So you're, you're, you're careful and you never will have it. That does not help business, that does not help clients. I think as much as helping someone understand and balance the risk and be more of an advisor. Clearly explaining the legal risk that's there, but then helping the individual or the clients at a corporation know how to balance that out with other things.

[00:16:01] Louis Goodman: Let's say you came into some real money, three or four billion dollars. What, if anything, would you do differently in your life? 

[00:16:09] Ken Crutchfield: Hopefully it wouldn't change me too much. I, you know, I probably look to get, you know, a second home or something like that and be able to enjoy a little bit more the, you know, the comforts from that standpoint.

But I wouldn't want it to change much more about what I do. I would really think long and hard about how I could give that money to organizations to make an impact. That would be something that I would want to do, but getting creative on how you do that, because I think just providing finances without having skin in the game or some other incentives gets to be a challenge. So I would be looking to be a philanthropist at that point and try to figure out how I would give that money away. 

[00:16:52] Louis Goodman: Let's say you had a Super Bowl ad. Someone gave you 60 seconds on the Super Bowl to say whatever you wanted, to a really large audience. 

[00:17:01] Ken Crutchfield: Think about how you can have a purpose in your life. Think about what you want your tombstone to say and work towards that. 

[00:17:11] Louis Goodman: If someone wants to get in touch with Ken Crutchfield, what is the best way to do that? 

[00:17:19] Ken Crutchfield: Sure. So I would say first, for Wolters Kluwer, go to Wolters kluwer.com. That is, that's the business that employs me. And they've got some great products and some great services that are applicable to the lawyer community.

And then for me, I think the easiest way would be to go to ken crutchfield.com. That is my personal website and that has email links and other ways or just, you know, do a quick search for Ken Crutchfield on LinkedIn. That's another great way to get in contact. I also do a series of articles on Above the Law, so if you want to hear or read a little bit more of my thought process, I've got a fair number of articles out there.

[00:18:04] Louis Goodman: And Wolters Kluwer just for people is it's spelled capital W-O-L-T-E-R-S, capital K-L-U-W-E-R. And if you Google them, I assure you they'll come up and you can search for Ken within the Wolters Kluwer website. Ken, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we haven't touched on? Anything at all that you'd like to bring up or mention?

[00:18:31] Ken Crutchfield: I'll bring up AI for a second just because I spent a lot of time with you. We're entering a world where people are feeling really overwhelmed with all the technologies out there, and I think my point to anybody wrestling with that is take a couple steps, learn a couple of AI tools, see what they can do to help your practice, but don't get overwhelmed.

Everybody else is at the exact same position wondering what's next. And so there's nobody out in front. There's nobody way behind at this point. Just, you know, think of it as taking one step and putting your foot in front of the other one and walking across the floor. I think that's the way to think about these things.

There are some great ways to use Gen AI and products like Claude or ChatGPT is help you with your writing, make things a little bit better. Be aware that those technologies do hallucinate. They can make things up very convincingly. So check your work, which is part of what a lawyer's supposed to do, anyhow. Make sure you read the case before you submit something with a citation to a court, because that would be bad if you didn't, and that's one of those great things that ChatGPT can make up. So those would be my thoughts that, you know, would be great for any attorney to just really think through because it is going to change the way work gets done.

I've got a friend who's a personal injury attorney in Ohio and I was talking with him. He asked his son to go do something he thought was gonna take like two days as a task and he came back in like 10 minutes and had a really, really good first draft.

And you know, those are the sorts of things that are the productivity values that can be there. It means there's a different way of reviewing and understanding how to coach and understand what the technology is providing, but there's gonna be tremendous opportunities for efficiency and effectiveness and better, better advice for clients.

[00:20:23] Louis Goodman: Ken Crutchfield, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. It's been a pleasure to talk to you.

[00:20:29] Ken Crutchfield: It's been a pleasure to talk with you, Louis. Thank you so much.

[00:20:32] Louis Goodman: That's it for today's episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and follow the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com, where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs and information.

Thanks to my guests, and to Joel Katz for music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

[00:21:09] Louis Goodman: Hang on. You know what I wanna do is it's, I can fix this in the edit, but I would just assume take a sip of water and let's, let me just try and shoot that intro one more time.