Ursula Jones Dickson - District Attorney of Alameda County

Louis Goodman / DA Ursula Jones Dickson - Transcript

[00:00:03] Louis Goodman: Welcome to Love Thy Lawyer, where we talk with attorneys about their lives and careers. I'm your host, Louis Goodman. Today we welcome the honorable Ursula Jones Dickson to the podcast. Ms. Jones Dickson currently serves as the District Attorney of Alameda County. She holds an office and sits at the desk once occupied by Chief Justice Earl Warren of the United States Supreme Court.

She served as a Deputy District Attorney in Alameda County from 1999 to 2013, and in that capacity for 14 years handled numerous felony and misdemeanor cases in all phases of criminal prosecution. In 2013, governor Jerry Brown appointed her to the Alameda County Superior Court Bench. She served as a presiding judge of the court's Juvenile Dependency Division.

Recently she stepped down from the bench and accepted an appointment by the Alameda County Board of Supervisors to the position of District attorney of Alameda County. Ursula Jones Dickson, welcome to Love Thy Lawyer. 

[00:01:22] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: Thank you for having me. I'm really appreciative to be able to sit down with you. 

[00:01:27] Louis Goodman: It is a pleasure to see you again. It's an honor to have you on the podcast. Congratulations on your appointment. I think all of us in the, certainly in the Alameda County legal community and being a resident of Alameda County, most of the people I know in Alameda County really appreciate the fact that you are the District Attorney and you accepted the appointment of the Board of supervisors.

[00:01:51] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I appreciate that. I feel lifted up by that 'cause this has been quite a transition. 

[00:01:56] Louis Goodman: Let's talk about that right away. What about it has been such a transition? 

[00:02:02] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I think I always loved being a District Attorney and I had to be convinced to come to the bench by a judge, just tried a case in front of Winford Smith and she kept calling me to her office trying to convince me to put in an application for the bench and I just didn't see that for myself. Ultimately, after I did that and got appointed, I thought, wow, this is the greatest job ever. And this opportunity came up at a time where I thought it was really necessary for some significant change in the county and specifically through the DA's office.

And just taking a step back from being a judge back to a lawyer is, has been fascinating. It is exhilarating. You feel like you can get in the arena again because as a judge there's some restrictions as to what you can do, what you can say. And here I think it gives you more freedom to be an advocate, 'cause that's how I came up as an advocate. When you come to the bench, you are fair and impartial in everything you do. And you don't vie for either side, you just facilitate justice and here you fight for it. And so just coming back to that has been wonderful. 

[00:03:10] Louis Goodman: Can you tell us a little bit about how the courtroom looks different from the bench as opposed to from counsel table?

[00:03:17] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: So from the bench, I think your goal is to create a certain amount of decorum in the courtroom. You're responsible for the proceedings moving in the direction they should be smoothly, people being respectful of one another, but also hearing the evidence, evaluating the evidence, and making people who have to be in the courtroom feel like they're being heard.

As a DA, you represent the people of the state of California. You're an advocate and it is, from the bench, it is just the look that we wanna make sure that the process moves the way it should move. The DA is making sure that the process moves in the direction of justice, and I think that the court is doing that in a different way, just making sure that there's an even playing field, whereas the DA is fighting and advocating and. Making sure that victim's voices are heard. There are a lot of similarities, but it feels different. You know, that you are at, in some ways, at the whim of the court as a lawyer, like it's your job to educate the court to argue appropriately, to make sure that the jury can understand what the issues are and what the concerns are.

But then you gotta just leave it in the hands of those folks, right? There's a level of let go and let jury, right? But when you are a judge, you can make sure that things move in the direction they should move. You don't have any, you shouldn't have any feelings about how these cases turn out, as long as the process is fair and due process is at the center of all of the things that you do.

Very similar in some ways, and so very different in others. And I think the biggest piece is fair and impartial without any advocacy versus fair and impartial with advocacy. 

[00:04:58] Louis Goodman: How long have you been a lawyer, including your judicial time? 

[00:05:05] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: So I passed the bar in November of 1998, and then around that time my father had a surgery. And I went home to help to take care of him. And so I had already had an offer at the DA's office and would've come on, I think, in December. But I came in February of 99 instead. So since November of 98. 

[00:05:28] Louis Goodman: And where are you speaking to us from right now? 

[00:05:31] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: In my office taking a, this is my break for the day.

My one break for the day, is to talk to you. 

[00:05:37] Louis Goodman: So are you speaking to us from the corner office of the ninth floor? 

[00:05:41] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I absolutely am, and I'm sitting at the desk that was Earl Warren's desk, so it is here and well taken care of. 

[00:05:48] Louis Goodman: I think that, for me anyway, having been the last Deputy DA hired by Lowell Jensen and having met Frank Coakley on a number of occasions when I was a young DA and working for Jack Meehan and knowing Tom Orloff well, and knowing Nancy O'Malley and frankly having some contact with Pamela Price as well. And you of course I've known for quite some time. It's a spine tingling privilege to be looking at you sitting in that office in the ninth floor, the corner office of the Alameda County Courthouse, and I think that anyone who has been a DA, or for that matter, anyone who's practiced law in Alameda County recognizes the significance of that room. 

[00:06:36] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I think so. I hope so. I also feel like we have a generation of lawyers, I think just because of the way things are, everything's very quick and we take things in snippets now that don't always look to the history of something that they join. 

[00:06:52] Louis Goodman: Yeah. 

[00:06:53] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: And this office has a great foundation. Like the foundation is so strong and I think that a lot of, when I got here, the first thing that kind of gave me the tingles was looking at the placard on the desk that this was Earl Warren's desk, or when I look out of the window here on the ninth floor of RCD and look at the lake outside of the window, realizing what a beautiful phenomenon it is in the middle of an urban city, that we have this beautiful place that we live this beautiful lake. In the middle of it, people walking and riding their bikes, et cetera, like I wanna protect that. I want us to remember how awesome Oakland is, that it's not always in the doom loop and that as beautiful as Oakland is, and this county is as diverse as it is, how amazing it is that we are in a unique position here in this office to try to keep it as safe as possible.

So it is humbling and sometimes slightly overwhelming to realize what, who came before you and whose shoulders you stand on. And honestly, if I'm being really frank, I think it is important to realize that in all the years of the DA's office, we are now on just our third female DA. And that's a big deal. That's a big deal. 

[00:08:14] Louis Goodman: Yeah. It is a big deal. And I think that, I think law has really become a profession where women really have been able to show their abilities and really stand on their own. For me, being really a child of the fifties and sixties, I went to elementary school in a class that was about 50% girls and 50% boys.

And really the girls were always the best students. They were always the kids who were at the top of the class. And I think I was really the first generation that kinda went through elementary school, high school, college, and then even law school with, I don't know, probably 40% of my law school class at it's now, call it something else, but it was at Hastings, was women and now with so many women practicing law and so many women on the bench. And recently so many women as the District Attorney of the county and not just in Alameda County. I think women are really coming into their own in the profession. 

[00:09:20] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I would agree. I think it's fascinating that in San Francisco County, Alameda County and Contra Costa County, you have three women who are District Attorneys, whereas back in the day, there were so very few. I'm sure Nancy O'Malley sat in rooms almost by herself for quite a bit of time. So that's a huge kind of population growth as DAs of counties.

In addition to that, I think we range across the board. Some of us progressive, some of us moderate, some of us conservative. So it's not just one type of woman who is getting the job as a DA and working hard on behalf of the constituents, and the community.

So I think my entire command staff really, except for two people on command staff is the folks that are really making policy decisions. Almost everybody's a woman, and so that's a huge difference from what it was before. I also think that we make a conscious effort now in this office to work collaboratively.

So on the ninth floor, there's a table in my office that has eight chairs, and every day there are at least some periods of time where there are four people at the table and we're having conversations or sometimes working independently on separate things, but bouncing things off one another. So that collaborative approach is really important, and having a team that is as smart or smarter than you, I like to surround myself with people I can learn from is really important too.

[00:10:49] Louis Goodman: You mentioned the sort of continuum of, I don't know, I don't know what to call it, political, but just prosecution philosophies. Where do you put yourself there? 

[00:10:59] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: So I'm a true moderate, always have been. It's my opinion that the pendulum swings a lot, specifically now in this country, and anytime the pendulum is at one side or the other, the top of either side, generally there's no communication going on.

There's no growth, there's no movement because people are on two separate sides. So where you always find consensus or some way to move forward is somewhere in the middle. And I haven't heard somebody call themselves a moderate in a while. Almost like a dirty word to call yourself a moderate. And I always have been.

I always will be. I don't, I just think that means that I'm looking for places that we can find some consensus and we can build. Because if we're not building, we're not growing. And if you're not growing, you're dying. And so this community needs a huge growth spurt right now. 

[00:11:51] Louis Goodman: What's the difference between being District Attorney of the county and being a Deputy District Attorney?

[00:11:59] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: A Deputy District Attorney can be assigned to do all kinds of work on behalf of victims in the county. That could include trying cases, misdemeanors and felonies, doing preliminary hearings, working on consumer and environmental cases, as well as insurance fraud and wage theft, and going into court or writing law, motion, writing motions.

The DA is responsible for setting the policy for the office, which in theory is the top law enforcement office in the county, right? Like I'm the top law enforcement officer in the county. I'm not an officer, but that is how, how they describe the District Attorney's position. And so the goal is to lead, is to set policy, is to help the county stay safe by making sure that the policy reflects the needs and the desires of the community, and also always to lift up victims of crime. The DA is here to set policy that assists victims in seeking justice, whatever that looks like. 

[00:13:03] Louis Goodman: Where are you from originally? 

[00:13:05] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I'm from Southern California originally. I'm from Carson, which is right next to Compton. My dad still lives in the house that they brought me home to when I was born. My mother passed away about 18 years ago. My dad is almost 91. He'll be 91 in November, living independently doing his thing. So I'm from Southern Cal. I came to the Bay Area to come to the University of California at Berkeley undergrad when I was 17, and I never went back home to live at least.

[00:13:32] Louis Goodman: After you graduated from Cal Berkeley, you ultimately went to law school. Did you take some time off between college and law school or did you go straight through? 

[00:13:41] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I did. I got married right after college. I'm still married to my husband almost 34 years. Wow. Few days short of 34 years, and I started off teaching.

I always committed. I wanted to teach at least two years after I graduated from college. I did that, and then at St. Columbus, so St. Columbus had a elementary and middle school right here in Oakland, and so I was there for two years and then I went on to the insurance industry to do workers' comp claims.

For several years, and I didn't care for the job, mostly because the attorneys there, we would do all the hard work and give it to the attorneys for litigations, and they almost never went to trial. I'm like, I could get paid more money than I'm making now to go do that, so maybe I should go to law school.

And so I talked to my boss at the time, we're still good friends and she's, yeah, I encourage you to do that. Let me write you a letter of recommendation. Ended up doing all the things, taking the LSAT and applying to law school and as I was applying to law school thinking I was gonna be an insurance defense lawyer, I was picked for a jury here in Alameda County. It was a sex case. Jo Hyatt was trying 

[00:14:46] Louis Goodman: Oh, 

[00:14:47] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: and I was fascinated by the courtroom. 

[00:14:50] Louis Goodman: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:14:52] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: And just the way she tried a case, I'm like, oh my God, this was calling my name. And you'd already made your decisions about why you were doing what you were doing, and I didn't really see a path to getting to a courtroom in that way to criminal law.

So followed along and I worked full-time as a paralegal during the day, and then went to law school at night at the University of San Francisco. After the first year hated being a paralegal and going to school part-time after working 45 hour weeks. I quit the part-time program and took some summer classes so I could ease into the full-time program.

So it's like I'll just go to school now and I had taken a sports law class. The professor in that sports law class after I wrote a thesis was like, Hey, I'm gonna go out on my own and become an agent. Would you like to consult for me? Know so much about this area. So I ended up starting my own business my second and third year and traveled a lot doing some sports and entertainment consulting while I was in law school, which helped to pay the bills 'cause I had a mortgage, et cetera, and I really liked it. But after that second year, I did a summer internship at the DA's office. Found my way to the DA's office in that way, and fell in love all over again with the courtroom and decided to, once I got an offer from the DA's office to do this and not to be an agent.

Isn't that crazy? Ursula, as an agent. 

[00:16:12] Louis Goodman: It's interesting, I've said it before on this podcast. As a matter of fact, I was just talking with a young woman earlier this week who, family friend who has graduated from college and has taken some extra education as well, and now she's thinking about becoming a lawyer and what advice did I have for her?

And I said, look, go work in the legal industry or in a legally adjacent industry because the people who were the best law students in my class were women in their late twenties who had some experience working between college and law school. So my guess is you were a pretty good law student. 

[00:16:54] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I was a pretty good law student, but I also was working like a maniac while I was in law school, so

[00:16:59] Louis Goodman: I don't doubt it. 

[00:17:00] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I think that made it easier for me to be a good lawyer. 

[00:17:03] Louis Goodman: Yeah. 

[00:17:03] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: 'cause I knew how to time manage. I knew how to multitask all of the things that are necessary to be a lawyer, and so I think that made it much easier. But I also have considered the fact that I think having already been married and paying a mortgage, that too is incentive to do all of those things right. At the time I was, by the time I was in my third year in law school, I had two mortgages and we were moving and shaking like young couples do, as if I wasn't in grad school and I was exhausted. But this falling in love with this, oh my goodness, I can't even imagine my life without, my professional life, without having the opportunity to be in a courtroom, to know what it feels like to pick 12 people to listen to you not knowing any of them and in hopes that you can articulate a narrative that resonates with them, such that they can follow the law after they hear the facts. There's nothing like it. And weirdly, I think even now I crave being in the courtroom. I'm here doing other things that are really important, but I crave being in the courtroom because there is nothing like it.

[00:18:18] Louis Goodman: Yeah, I've always thought that being involved with the criminal law, whether a prosecutor, a defense attorney, or a judge, none of us are getting wealthy practicing criminal law. But it is such a privilege as an attorney to be doing that work because I think that's really the essence of what lawyering is in the minds of, I don't know, minds of most people, but certainly I think in the minds of people when they think about going to law school.

[00:18:51] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: It's hilarious because when I got this job, I think I was sworn in as a judge and my children were there and they were like, oh, this is cool. And my dad was there and said, oh, that's nice. And then when I was sworn in for this position, everybody was so excitable, right. My son, about three weeks later was asking my husband, so she's Jack McCoy and on Law and Order, and my husband.

So it depends on which Jack McCoy you're talking about, which Law and Order you're talking about. But that was when it resonated with him because his friends were so fascinated by this. He's really, she's Jack McCoy. I am like, what did you think was happening, kid? But it's funny because it does. I mean, my kids, they, most of the time that I was on the bench, I was in a courtroom that had confidential matters, 

[00:19:34] Louis Goodman: Right.

[00:19:34] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: So they couldn't sit in and when I was a DA and they were younger, wasn't appropriate for them. The subject matter wasn't. So there is a bit of a reckoning like, wow, that wow, this is hard work. No wonder she's working so many hours. No wonder we see her a little less. And that is an interesting transition as well.

[00:19:52] Louis Goodman: If a young person were just coming outta school and thinking about a career, would you recommend the law? 

[00:19:58] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I think yes, but I also think that I would encourage them to intern for free in high school. I. Undergrad, if they're considering it, they should have started considering it earlier and like you go get a taste of what you're gonna get into.

Because what I do is so very different than what a patent lawyer does or a corporate lawyer does. And you should know what you wanna do because law school is really expensive. Maybe three years before I got off the bench there was a group of young lawyers who were appearing in front of me and we were, it was during COVID, so we were online and we had a break and they were having a conversation about law school loans and I'm like, what are we talking now?

What does law school cost? Yeah. This young woman says she was in debt $400,000. I couldn't believe it. 

[00:20:46] Louis Goodman: Yeah. 

[00:20:47] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: And she was making 80. So there's no way to dig out of that long term. So there is always a balance, like what do you wanna do with your law degree? If you wanna do something that's gonna make you 80 grand, then let's find a school that will pay for, give you some money to go to law school.

There are all these things that you need to consider. Short answer is yes, but with some caveats. 

[00:21:09] Louis Goodman: When did you first start thinking maybe I'm a lawyer? 

[00:21:15] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: Never, honestly, my mother used to always say, you should be a lawyer. You'd argue with a, she would say, you would argue with a Q-tip. Oh, okay. And I'm like, what?

[00:21:22] Louis Goodman: Okay. 

[00:21:23] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I would never wanna do that. And then at some point my husband started saying, I think you'd be a good lawyer. And I'm like, I don't see that for myself. And it wasn't until I really got, I got into, I was considering it because of work purposes. I didn't love what I was doing and I felt like I could do a better job than the lawyers.

But when I got on that jury, I was like, oh yeah, I was actually studying for the LSAT when I was on that jury, and it just solidified I'm doing what I wanna do. So it really was a matter of feeling like I could fix something or do something better. 

[00:21:55] Louis Goodman: What do you think is the best advice you've ever received? And then, let me just flip it a little bit. What advice would you give to a young attorney or a young Deputy DA, or for that matter, even a new judge, just starting out? 

[00:22:12] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: Two pieces of advice. One, plan your work and work your plan. So I just think you always have to be thinking macro at the time that they're, that you're thinking micro.

That's for lawyers and that's for life. That's just the way it is. The second advice my mother gave me was. You're gonna pray, don't worry. And if you're gonna worry, don't pray. And I always thought, you know what? Yeah. What's the point in wasting the energy? Give it to the universe and then just do the best you can do and it'll work out the way it's supposed to work out.

As it relates to advice to young lawyers, I just think that this can't, this job should not be about money. It should be about a commitment to, if you are a civil lawyer or a big firm lawyer, pro bono has to be a part of the package. You have to give back to somebody. This is a skillset a lot of people don't have the privilege, they don't get the privilege right to do this work. They don't have the skillset. I watch people maneuver, whether it be with a school issue or a medical provider, and I know what I'm capable of. And then I watch other people struggle because they don't have the same access or education. So it is incumbent upon us to use our skill sets to make sure that we protect the ones around us, whether there are family, by blood, by choice, or just by geography, our community. So for me, I just think if you're gonna become a lawyer go in knowing that you owe it to somebody to do something for someone else, that would be the best advice I'd have. 

[00:23:43] Louis Goodman: Is there anything that you know now that you kinda wish you'd known before you'd gone down any of these career paths? You've had such a, in some sense it's a linear career, but in other ways it's a very unusual career in the sense that you went from originally thinking about civil law and then you ended up as a prosecutor, and from there you went to the bench, which is not particularly unusual, but then having the courage to leave the bench to come back to the prosecution side of things.

And I'm just. I'm just wondering if you could talk about whether there's anything that you wish you'd known before you started down the road. 

[00:24:23] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I think, I wish I knew that nothing is static. I think a lot of people assume because they have a law degree and they find an area of law they wanna practice and they're stuck there.

They're not. That wasn't the case years ago actually. People would come to the DA's office, get trial experience and then go do something else. I think now it's a little harder to do that, but I've never really felt tied down or anchored by the type of law that I'm practicing or the job that I have at the time.

So I just, a JD is probably the best type of education you could have. And you don't have to be defined by what you're doing at any given time if you have a JD. You can practice law or not. You can use it for many things. 

[00:25:08] Louis Goodman: Most of the people who listen to this podcast are lawyers. What advice do you have for lawyers when they're in front of judges? And what kinds of things did you look for when you were on the bench in terms of good practice on the part of attorneys? 

[00:25:28] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: Every judge has their little pet peeves. I'll start with that. Never don't talk over the court. That drives me nuts when I was on the bench. It's just like I give everybody an opportunity to speak, but at some point it's my job to make a decision and therefore, so I think that there is, you make your arguments and be concise.

Know what the hell you're gonna argue before you start jaw jacking, because the court only has so much time and it just sound like an old curmudgeon as a judge right now, but they only have so much time. They can't let you talk on forever. So I think that is one thing. I also think preparation. When you have a lawyer who comes in prepared, every case is gonna give you, throw you a curve ball, it just is what it is, right?

So when you're prepared, that curve ball looks more like it's straight up the middle. So preparation is everything. You gotta figure out what is the best type of preparation for you. You don't have to prepare like everybody else. Some people like to write everything. Some people like to type everything.

Some people don't need to write or type any of it. So don't try to be something that you're not. Just find what works for you and ride that train. 

[00:26:38] Louis Goodman: Now how about as a District Attorney, a Deputy District Attorney in court? What's the best way to approach a DA who is perhaps on the, on, who's on the other side of the case and you're trying to negotiate something with, and, and in a lot of ways, every Deputy DA is essentially performing, as you had mentioned earlier, almost a semi judicial function.

So what sorts of things work for you as a courtroom negotiator? 

[00:27:10] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I think what used to be the case is Defense Attorneys and the DAs tend to have a mutual respect for one another because they work together a lot. We oftentimes don't agree, but what we do is find a way to make sure that there's certain lawyers who come to you and if they tell you that this mitigation is there, you trust that it is because they don't bring that to you all the time on every case saying the same thing.

I think that what I've seen in when I was on the bench, at least from the younger generation of lawyers, is that they don't understand how important your reputation is, right? Yeah. And so sometimes you go for broke on a case that is not even worth going for, broke on, and then when you come back to the table, when there's something that you really need to make the DA or judge understand.

This is the one nobody believes you because it's like the sky is falling chicken little, right? So I think, but that works both ways for the DA as well. If I tell you I'm going to do something, then I have to follow through with that. So I have to be careful what I promise and do my research on the front end before I make that promise such that I don't damage my reputation as well.

So I think some of this is just a matter of, I always say, I always think of it as a sports analogy. It's reps. The more reps you get. With the more on the other side of the table, right, with the defense attorney or the DA, depending on who you are, the better you get at understanding how to engage to resolve cases, what to say, what to bring to folks, what your office and your county is looking for as some level of mitigation because it's a little different. Sometimes it may be this person is, has had this kind of life and that's enough. This is rough, and so therefore we want some level of this is mitigation. Sometimes people want documentation to that effect that you just can't just tell 'em that. So it really depends on who you're dealing with.

But I do think that it's just reps and people. You building your reputation every time you take a rep and knowing that if you ever put yourself in a position where people can't believe you. Then they don't believe you. It takes a long time to get come back from that. 

[00:29:16] Louis Goodman: Oh, that's for sure. Now, what about if someone is thinking, gee, I'd like to be a Deputy District Attorney in the legendary Alameda County District Attorney's office, what sort of things are you looking for in terms of hiring?

[00:29:31] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I feel like we're looking for people who understand that this is public service. You don't come to the DA's office to get trial experience or to grandstand in a courtroom. You come here because you wanna help people. Your goal is to help victims through a difficult time and help them to move from victimization to being survivors.

So we look for people who have some type of experience in helping somebody, doing something for someone other than themselves. In addition to that, I think we're looking for folks who are not scared to get in the arena. We're trial lawyers. We don't hire people directly to go into law motion. Like you may make your way there, but everybody's gonna be in a trial court.

And so the goal is to know that you need to fill that level of comfort or at least want to learn how to do that and not have some fear of the courtroom. And the third thing I think that's really important is that. Everybody has butterflies in their stomach, 

[00:30:29] Louis Goodman: yeah, 

[00:30:29] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: but you can't be fearful. You have to like, again, as reps, you've gotta get in, try it. Try something new. Talk to your supervisor. Talk to your colleagues. Talk to them about how they've done it. Ask questions before you do it. How do you authenticate? How do you get things marked for evidence? Who do you make friends with in the courtroom first? The clerk. That's the first person you engage as the clerk so that you know how to get things done 'cause rules are different in each courtroom. Like they're little things that we learn. So I think those are probably the three things I'd really be looking for. Of course, somebody who's smart and intelligent, all those good things. But I think that the balance is being able to do those three things and be a people person 'cause that's what you have to be to do this job. 

[00:31:12] Louis Goodman: I know we agreed not to talk too much about politics in this podcast, but I have a couple of questions that that if you feel comfortable answering, I think might be of interest. And one is, as you sit there right now, are you planning to run for DA in the next election that comes up?

[00:31:32] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: Yes. And the one after that as well. 

[00:31:34] Louis Goodman: Do you have a 30 second elevator speech? 

[00:31:37] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I wouldn't say that I have an elevator speech at this time. What I would say is that I try to stay in the community as much as possible, talking to people about the direction I think we need to take. I keep saying keep the main thing.

I want to do the work of a District Attorney, of a prosecutor, and that involves being compassionate and passionate at the same time. But the ultimate goal is to make sure two goals, that we are doing everything we can to lift up the voices of the victim and to provide justice for them. And also that we provide an avenue to public safety because we're not the only piece of the puzzle, right?

So knowing that Oakland has less police, then they should. We know that when somebody brings a case to us, a police officer from Oakland, that we can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, we charge the case because I think they got really despondent over the last several years because certain cases weren't being charged. They weren't sure what was happening with their cases. So we want victims of crime to know that the community frowns upon. People who are, are victimizing. 

[00:32:46] Louis Goodman: Yeah. 

[00:32:46] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: And so I think that really is the job of the DA. I am not a psychiatrist, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a social worker. I'm not a public defendant.

And so I want to make sure that during the next, I'm hoping 12 years, I'd like to be around that long in this position that we get back to, people have to all do their part. The community-based organizations need to do their part to make sure they're providing the services necessary to help try to deter people from coming into the system.

And when people do come into the system, I can't just say no harm, no foul. When I have victims who are saying, well, what about us? So there are avenues away from the system. The legislature has provided those to us via certain diversion programs, et cetera. But we do still have to hold people accountable because if we don't.

We get this weird space where folks come here to commit crime, come to our county to commit crime and specifically to Oakland. I think that the, I keep the main thing, I'm gonna keep saying that until the end and when you hear my name, what you should think is DA slash prosecutor, 'cause that's what we do.

[00:33:55] Louis Goodman: What, if anything, would you change about the way the legal system works? 

[00:34:01] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I think there are a lot of things one could wish for. Change is different, 'cause I think times change and things morph, but I have significant concerns about how victims' voices aren't heard as loudly as they were maybe 15 years ago.

I had a conversation with someone recently about, there is all of this, these avenues for people to parole early, whether it's youth offender or if you're elderly in custody, but I don't, I've never really heard anybody talk about the fact that we told victims of crime and their family members in no uncertain terms, this person is going to spend this amount of time in custody before they're eligible for parole. That's a difficult conversation to have with victims since.

We told them that, the legislature told them that, the case law told them that, the defense attorney told them that, et cetera. I just, I feel like it's hard. I don't think people realize how difficult those conversations are, and so I would, I wish we could inform victims in a better way. Just because the legislature passes law or the case law puts us in a position to do something differently doesn't mean that we haven't yet continued to traumatize or re-victimize the victims of crime that we have been trying to help with whatever trauma they've experienced and to hold the person accountable who's done something to them.

That that really just, I would, if I could change that. I think that if, if you wanna change the law going forward, that's one thing, but I think the most difficult conversations that I've had to date here have been talking to people about, Hey, things changed. I know we told you that this was the amount of time this person would be in custody that killed your entire family, but now that's different because of his or her age.

That's a hard conversation to have. That's just one thing, but more detailed things than there are big picture things at this point. I think we also wanna make sure that as our politics get more and more divisive that does not find its way into the courtroom as much as possible, right? Because just as the defendant has a right to a vigorous defense and to make sure that his rights are protected, the victim does too.

And so when it becomes too political, I think that's when everybody gets shafted on both sides. And I think we, if we could just get back to those things, maybe, although nobody's ever really happy about being with a Defense Attorney, a DA, and a judge, at least people can feel like they got what they knew was coming.

You know, what to expect from this process. And I sometimes I feel like people don't anymore. 

[00:36:59] Louis Goodman: Yeah. That brings up another question, which is just do you think the system's fair? 

[00:37:04] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I think that that's a weird question because I used to always remember when my mother would tell me it's not fair, and she's, life's not fair. Nothing's fair, but you do the right thing. Do I think it's fair that we have folks who have had very difficult upbringings and circumstances in their life who sometimes find themselves in our system? No, that's not fair. Do I think it's fair that the people who are victimized potentially by those individuals and now victims and have lost a loved one or a limb or their dignity, that's not fair either.

I don't think there's anything fair about being a victim of crime either. So when we talk about systems, I think that the system that we have is probably better than any other system that exists. And I also feel like we're more violent than dang near any place else in the world too. So that's a hard question to answer.

Like I don't think it's fair that we live in a society that's so violent. I don't think it's fair that Oakland has the reputation, everybody has a gun. So then now you see all these murder cases where almost every case has a self-defense argument to be made because there's so many guns on the street. I don't think it's fair that we have victims of crime that are trying to get their lives back together, and then they get to be revictimized over and over again with either the process of judicial intervention, which the court has to do what they have to do. I did. But I, that's not fair. There are a lot of things that aren't totally fair. Do I think this system is the best setup to get us to fairness? Absolutely. 

[00:38:50] Louis Goodman: I wanna shift gears here a little bit and ask you what your family life has been like through your career in the legal system, and what sorts of things did you enjoy doing recreationally to get your mind off of the law once in a while.

[00:39:07] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I think it's important to say to people that being a lawyer is hard work and it's a lot of work and it doesn't really stop. And depending on which side of the case you're on. In criminal law, your phone doesn't stop ringing. If you're in trial, you're in trial. It doesn't matter if it's Thanksgiving or your birthday. It just is what it is. Somebody's getting married. Oh.

So that's something to think about and I think people should take that into consideration when they consider practicing law. 

[00:39:32] Louis Goodman: Yeah. 

[00:39:33] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: For me. I'm not as good as I should be at self-care these days because there's a lot on the plate, but I have one child that is under 18 and one over, and so just trying to navigate, making sure I'm present for both of them and spending some quality time with my husband and my family is a good idea in theory.

The last several months have been hard to do that, and I went directly from the bench to this job. Probably would've been a good idea to take a week off, but we didn't do that, so we, we grind that out. What I, for me, recreation generally would look like travel mostly throughout the Caribbean. I used to spend a lot of time on the beaches in the Caribbean as much as I could and all over the Caribbean.

No specific place. In addition to that, I'm a big sports fan. I do like to watch a lot of both basketball, football, sometimes baseball, and women's softball on television. And I have a child who is active in sports as well. So that takes up a lot of my time. Life is busy now. That's about it, honestly, because I don't have the time that I, 

[00:40:40] Louis Goodman: that's a lot. 

[00:40:41] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: A lot. It is a lot. It is a lot. Yeah. But yeah, that takes up a lot of time. I think that the older I get. The more that I realized that if we don't figure out self-care early, it's hard to do that later. So I, that would also be advice that I would back to a question before I would give to young lawyers is that you find a way to practice self-care early so that it's a routine and a habit, and you don't have to look for time to carve out to do it later.

[00:41:08] Louis Goodman: Let's say you came into some real money, let's say three or $4 billion. What, if anything, would you do differently in your life? 

[00:41:16] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I think for me, it would be a matter of where I would donate money, like where I would put money and as we see grants drying up potentially from the feds, that will affect victims' rights.

I could see myself putting some money toward victim rights groups so that we don't lose certain services. I probably would still work for a bit, 'cause this is not the type of job that I'd wanna just leave to anybody. So I'd be really conscious about not disappearing. And I also feel like if I could, I would find a way to build scholarships for young folks who wanna go to law school 'cause it's too expensive, but that they have to guarantee that they're gonna work for certain amount of time doing public service. That would be a good idea as well. 

[00:42:03] Louis Goodman: Let's say you had a magic wand, could wave the magic wand at something in the legal world and the world in general, wherever. What one thing would you like to change with your magic wand? 

[00:42:13] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: I would order humanity for everybody. I think that if we could just have even little more humanity, I think this journey would be a lot easier for all of us.

So I think that's both legal and just for the world. That would be the humanity wand I'd be looking for. 

[00:42:32] Louis Goodman: What if someone gave you 60 seconds on the Super Bowl? A Super Bowl ad, and you could say anything you wanted to a really big audience. What message would you wanna put out there? 

[00:42:45] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: We are, our brother and sisters keepers, we're responsible for one another. We're family, whether we like it or not. Sometimes dysfunctional family, but family all the same. We are responsible for making sure that each one teach one, that we keep each other safe. If you see something, say something. And I think that if we band together in that way, they're more of us who are protective of our brothers and sisters than folks who wanna tear us down.

And so it would be a message about unity at a time where we need it most. Not allowing our political views to get in the way of our humanity back to humanity, that we still take care of one another. 

[00:43:25] Louis Goodman: Ursula, is there anything that you would like to discuss? Anything that we haven't talked about, anything at all that you'd like to bring up?

[00:43:34] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: No. I honestly wanna bring up the fact that I think it's really cool that you do this. You don't have to. I think it's important that lawyers see each other and hear each other and lift each other up because this work is difficult. And I've known you since I, since I became a lawyer actually. And so I've watched you move through the world with a lot of grace and I just wanna tell you I appreciate it.

[00:43:58] Louis Goodman: Thank you. And, and I certainly appreciate the grace that you've moved through our legal system with and that you are continuing to do that. So I'll just end by saying District Attorney Ursula Jones Dickson, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer Podcast. It has been a pleasure to talk to you.

[00:44:21] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: My pleasure. For sure. Thank you. 

[00:44:25] Louis Goodman: That's it for today's episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and follow the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com, where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs and information.

Thanks to my guests, and to Joel Katz for music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

[00:45:02] DA Ursula Jones Dickson: And oftentimes I find myself in career moves because I feel like I could do it better than what I've seen. We don't have to agree to take care of one another. That's just a basic concept.